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| Author | Is it possible to completely disable Platinum on OS 8.0-8.1? (Read 107446 times) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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MTT
256 MB  Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer 
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Reply #15 on: May 28, 2024, 01:52
@Knezzen: USB support (in your 8600?). That's cool. Inspires me to drag my now rarely used beige G3 back from inactivity. The minimum installable OS for the beige was 8.0, so for this, I'll go the 7.6.1 Finder into an installed 8.1 route, and see if it works  @alectrona6400: "WOW!" Yes, I agree, this does seem to be stable enough and snappy. I won't be trying it on an 8.5 or later system though, as I think the changes there will be too different, 8.5+ is PPC native only, the Appearance Manager is built into the System File itself, and cannot be disabled. |
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Last Edit: May 28, 2024, 01:54 by MTT
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1176 System 7, today and forever
Reply #16 on: May 28, 2024, 04:35
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I wonder if one of these combinations would actually work on a Beige DT G3??  That might be pushing the limit as the Beige requires 8.0 and up whereas the 6400 is compatible with both OSes. I might ask our gang to please zip up some System Folders to test it out on real hardware, possibly trying an external boot just in case my Mac doesn't like the experience. I'm not sure how one might test the boot with a PPC emulator since those don't really need ROMs to boot? Which is why I'd likely go with a bare-metal test 
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Jatoba
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256 MB Posts: 270 System 9 Newcomer!
Reply #17 on: May 28, 2024, 08:10
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I think it's still worth doing this test with the 8.5 system file, just for closure's sake. Although Appearance Manager is bundled with the system file at that point on, and will always load it into RAM, that doesn't necessarily mean its routines will be at all used if you stick to Finder 7.6.1 and the other required 7.6.1 Extensions and Control Panels. My point being that the performance loss associated with Appearance Manager might be coming from its routines being run, rather than it being loaded into memory. If so, there's the possibility you might still keep the "7.6.1 snappiness" with a speedy 7.6.1 OS replaced with the 8.5 system file. I don't (and can't anymore) own a 7.6.1 system, so I can't even test it myself.  So I hope one of you guys eventually will. Although emulators help, nothing beats the "real-world" tests.
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #18 on: May 28, 2024, 09:23
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No obstacle in running the 7.6.1 Finder in a Beige G3 Installed a fresh copy of 8.1 this afternoon, swapped the Finder with one from a 7.6.1 install and rebooted. All seems to be fine, so far. Made the mistake of not formatting the HD as HFS+ so I'm going to have to start again. I don't think that it will be a problem. No USB support at all with the PCI card that's in there, and all USB Card Support software seems to be for 8.5 or newer. My install software was the genuine Beige G3 install CD, and of course there was no USB for the Beige except for 3rd party cards. Which is a bummer as I can't stand fighting with 1-button ball mouse's 
Last Edit: May 28, 2024, 09:29 by MTT
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1176 System 7, today and forever
Reply #19 on: May 28, 2024, 17:48
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Wonderful testing, MTT!!!  and that's right, you also own a Beige G3 like I do! (somehow missed reading that in the thread, lol)Oh boy; while I do have an ADB keyboard, my cable is not very long, so I do like using my wireless USB keyboard and mouse with it (I'm running mine with Mac OS 9) but this is a very neat retro hack since Dan P., the original S7T forum keeper, tried everything to get Mac OS 7.6.1 to run on his 3500c Kanga, the original G3 Mac in a 3400c laptop casing. Who knew that a hybrid OS bootup existed all of these years? (well, at least for the Beige G3 and it's AIO and Tower variants that all run Mac OS 8.0; but I believe Mac OS 7.6.1 was also attempted on some of those Mac models as well, but only the G3 Kanga along with the very first iMac, officially can boot with Mac OS 8.1 and higher, so they might be too 'new' for this particular hack)
Last Edit: May 28, 2024, 17:50 by cballero
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snes1423
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256 MB Posts: 458 A Man born of Mechina
Reply #20 on: May 28, 2024, 19:15
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I wonder if my WS/266 13.3in can do it hmmmm
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alectrona6400
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16 MB Posts: 28 Curious nerd woman with crazy ideas!
Reply #21 on: May 28, 2024, 20:46
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https://revontulet.org/2024/05/28/2276697e8e724bbdb820ec32d7eda3dc.png Tried it with 8.5 in a VM. It's not exactly pretty and it loads up Appearance Manager but you can't change the settings without the OS 8.5 control panels. Pretty sure some hacking would need to be done here.
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Knezzen
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Administrator 512 MB  Posts: 608 Village idiot
Reply #22 on: May 29, 2024, 08:47
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I have a Kanga and I intend to try 7.6.1 with the 8.1 System file on it. I think it will work just fine. Or hope at least. Would be really cool.
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Jatoba
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256 MB Posts: 270 System 9 Newcomer!
Reply #23 on: May 29, 2024, 11:05
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@alectrona6400 Thank you for checking! A shame it actually loaded and ran/rendered despite the Finder version! I agree probably only hacking can address it at that point. At least now we have closure.
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1176 System 7, today and forever
Reply #24 on: May 29, 2024, 17:59
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We're really a retro bunch: we do love to push the limits backwards like running earlier OSes and reverting to the original Classic theme as well as forward, like adding HFS+ and getting things like USB, WiFi and other drivers to work on earlier OSes!
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alectrona6400
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16 MB Posts: 28 Curious nerd woman with crazy ideas!
Reply #25 on: May 30, 2024, 07:01
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I don't know if anyone will side with me on this but with me loading the 8.1 system suitcase into 7.6.1 I believe I've just inadvertently created the Snow Leopard of Mac OS 7.6. At least on those computers that had bugs on 7.6 and 7.6.1, which were fixed with 8.0 and 8.1. Can't believe disk performance went up 50%, perhaps because before OS 8 the implementation for the Alchemy's IDE interface in the OS was not well optimized. And just as a reminder, Mac OS 8 was supposed to be 7.7 until they renamed it... really makes you think! OS 8.5 felt more like a proper "Mac OS 8 Release" compared to 8.0 and 8.1 and now it's pretty obvious as to why.
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1176 System 7, today and forever
Reply #26 on: May 30, 2024, 08:00
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I see that One of the main key points of S7T was to maximize all of the speed advantages of Mac OS 7 on pre-G3 PowerMacs as well as the Kanga. Once Knezzen tests it out on that Powerbook, it's pretty much a breakthrough OS indeed! My nod to Mac OS 8.1 was in part to it's interface elements, but was hoping Mac OS 7.6.1 could incorporate some of the 'under-the-hood' OS improvements made in Mac OS 8.1, including HFS+, which this hybrid OS mix does without hacking anything! So as far as Appearance Manager goes, when that one is implemented, does the system run slower then? Or maybe it just feels slow? I know that was the claim for Mac OS 8.0 and 8.1, but I've always found it pretty responsive, both on real Macs and Basilisk II. I know Dan benchmarked this before, but I'd like to see the comparison with this crossbreed OS!
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #27 on: May 31, 2024, 06:56
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@cballero: Hello my fellow Beige G3 owner I'm still in the process of setting mine up as a System 8.1 Mac with a 7.6.1 Finder. All is running nicely, but I did need to work a little harder than perhaps someone with an early iMac G3 would have to do. Due largely to the original Beige G3 OS 8.1 install set, which is like a cut-down version of what you would get if the Mac had been New World with built in USB. Here's my current desktop showing this work in progress. A breakdown of some of the open folder windows in the screenshot: "Extensions-Applebuilt" - I have a 3rd party USB card on board and no USB drivers are included in the Beige G3 8.1 install set, I had to source these elsewhere. I found this compatible set in the Apple Developers (July 1998) CD from the MG. Great, now I have a working USB mouse, albeit it's acting as a one button mouse. "ATI Rage 128" - I have a Rage 128 PCI card pulled from a B/W G3 tower. I scrounged these drivers from a B/W G3 install CD. They work fine. "hold-761-PPC" - my basic install set of drivers to get good functionality in the G3 with the 7.6.1 Finder. Some are 3rd party and used to enable Sticky Menus and drag to create alias files, etc. "Navigation SharedLibs" - my USB mouse is a basic Microsoft 3 button wheel mouse. I used the earliest drivers for it that I could find. When loaded they informed me that it couldn't find "NavigationLib", so I tracked this one down (happily I found it in the same July 98 Dev CD). Installed, the mouse software then told me it required Mac OS 8.5.1 - please upgrade your OS ! Oh well, a single button mouse will have to do for now... I haven't been able to find USB mouse drivers for any Mac OS below 8.5 I thought to change the "About This Computer - System Software 8.1" message to "System Software 7.8" with ResEdit. Which I tried to do, but as soon as I rebooted the Mac barfed and told me that this OS version was not able to run on this Mac model, and I needed to upgrade the OS. It may have worked if the Mac had been able to boot up natively into 7.6 WRT the Appearance Manager - I don't remove it in OS 8.1, I just have it turned off in the Control Panel and if a program requires it, it can make use of it as needed. Otherwise I wouldn't know it was there. It's a pity that Contextual Menu Items are dependent on the 8.1 Finder, and not the System file. It would be nice to have those menus working. But over all, this Mac is running well with my current 8.1 "downgrade".
Last Edit: May 31, 2024, 07:10 by MTT
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1176 System 7, today and forever
Reply #28 on: June 02, 2024, 02:28
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Excellent testing, MTT! One breakthrough typically leads to more creative hacking of the missing components until you reach the utmost in solutions; when OS 8 came out, some things were still on the horizon, like multi-buttoned mouse drivers, so some aspects will remain just out of reach. Still, it's amazing to see just how much we all can push these limits! and it all begins with a bright idea like this one! I imagine that purists like Dan felt that any venture into Mac OS 8 land would spell doom as far as pure speed, but this test shows quite the opposite, albeit with a few system trade-offs like the ones you pointed out. As OS 9 forever tries to hack and assemble the ultimate Mac OS 9.2.3 or even 9.3, were here attempting to do the same with Mac OS 7; I love it!
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #29 on: June 02, 2024, 18:55
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Very cool MTT! I think you definitely hit the sweet spot as far as beige "old world" Macs go. Not that I think it'd buy you much, but you night look into the version of 8.1 that shipped with the original iMac...yes, the very first one had 8.1! Other than the 7.6 Finder, I think you'd see it is extremely close to what you have. (It'd have older ATI drivers though, as the original iMac didn't have a rage 128). Contextual Menus not working without Finder 8.x...I'm thinking this may not actually be the case...the extension itself is probably working, but, of course, any contextual menus from the Finder itself won't, since the 7.x Finder has no clue the extension exists. I don't know if there was an SDK that came out for it, like there was for Navigation and some of the other features (like drag and drop) that ended up shipping standard with the Systems, but if there was, it'd probably come with example programs that could be used to show if it were actually working or not. But then I can't remember for sure one way or the other if Contextual Menus came out before MacOS 8.x, with versions that ran on 7.x...a lot of the parts did...as we're finding, the Finder may have been the only part that didn't! ---- One note, if trying different versions of the System file, switching just it out but leaving "System Resources" and/or an enabler means you aren't fully switching it out. If I remember correctly Apple added the "System Resources" file when the System file got too big as overflow...it was either a kludge for speed or to get around limitations in the Resource Manager. And, things that show up as separate extension files got moved wholesale into the System file itself over time...as code fragments in the data fork, and all their resources mixed in with the others. ---- I'm interested in maybe hacking a mouse driver to get everything working on such a mutant system...let me know which ones you've tried that say they required 8.5... We should make an "official System7Today distro" of the mutant 8.1 with 7.6 Finder!
Last Edit: June 02, 2024, 18:57 by lauland
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