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| Author | Is it possible to completely disable Platinum on OS 8.0-8.1? (Read 107445 times) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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alectrona6400
16 MB  Posts: 28 Curious nerd woman with crazy ideas! 
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on: May 24, 2024, 03:56
Not sure if anyone's actually documented this or discovered this... but I'm quite curious about something rather impractical. Since Mac OS 8.0 and 8.1 are much closer to System 7 (almost as if it's Mac OS 7.7), would it be possible to disable platinum entirely and perhaps even port the 7.6.1 (v 7.5.6) finder over to it? This is really something I've thought of for a while, but wasn't sure how it could be done... I love the platinum theme but Mac OS 8.0 and especially 8.1 have some minor bug fixes that could possibly give it an advantage over 7.6.1 (I know the virtual memory bug on the alchemy based systems was fixed), though Appearance Manager has also been known to eat up a considerable amount of resources especially on older macs. I think it could also be doable with 8.5(.1) or 8.6 but as far as I'm aware those are very differently written compared to previous versions and the appearance manager seems to be more of a requirement. All I'm curious is... is it possible? I might actually try messing around in SheepShaver swapping over different components, but I'm also wondering if anyone's actually tried this before. Sent from my PowerMac 6400/G3 
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1176 System 7, today and forever
Reply #1 on: May 24, 2024, 05:23
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I love the Kaleidoscope trick to scheme it with 7, but doing this adds an app and extension to swap the theme during that boot session, nothing more 
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Jatoba
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256 MB Posts: 270 System 9 Newcomer!
Reply #2 on: May 24, 2024, 09:53
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We considered the required steps to achieve this (Mac OS 8.0+ without Appearance Manager) in the Appearance Manager Macintosh Garden page. You may like checking out the comments left in there, as well as a useful table in the description. With some hackeroo or poking around, it could be, perhaps, possible. It will depend on whether or not you are feeling adventurous enough!
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB  Posts: 2023
Reply #3 on: May 24, 2024, 12:05
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It is indeed a tempting endeavor and you're spot on that 8.1 is closer to 7 than OS 8.5+ & 9. That said, does anyone have a detailed changelog for 8.0 and 8.1? I know about HFS+ support, Platinum and a handful of bugfixes, but what exactly does that mean?
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #4 on: May 24, 2024, 17:09
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What we got for 8.0 is pretty much 7.7 (as it was originally called at first). If we could look in the dev/release notes for 7.7 and the 8.0 betas we might find an actual list. But 8.0 is mostly just 7.6 with all the patches, a new threaded Finder and the first Appearance. 8.0 requires '040 but not for any real reason and can be hacked. HFS+ showed up for 8.1. The appearance manager in 8.0/8.1 is a bit of a hack, with a HUGE leap for 8.5. Not only does the 8.0/8.1 version not support theming, the entire infrastructure for it, which included major work and numerous new functions for developers in Menu/Window/Control/etc Managers, just isn't there. It's more of a clever kludge that patches WDEFs, etc, on the fly. I know that some people that, on the other hand, love Platinum, have been known to use Kaleidoscope (or AAron lite if memory serves) for the opposite reason: 8.0/8.1 isn't Platinum enough for them, as it misses drawing EVERYTHING greyscale (and black on white shows up in places it shouldn't) compared to 8.5+!
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alectrona6400
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16 MB Posts: 28 Curious nerd woman with crazy ideas!
Reply #5 on: May 24, 2024, 20:02
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Well, you might be shocked to hear this... It is possible with the right tools! I actually went ahead and tried it myself last night with Mac OS 8.1 and Finder 7.5.6 to success! I used Basilisk II to make a quick setup with 8.1 and a copy of 7.6.1 installed on a separate drive. A lot of things do work, but there are several things you need to bring over from 7.6.1, namely a few control panels that require AppearanceLib and a couple extensions (like the network extension) not present in 8.x for a couple of 7.6.1 control panels to work. I have posted a screenshot of this on the 68kMLA forums as a status update.
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1176 System 7, today and forever
Reply #6 on: May 24, 2024, 20:30
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Noice! That's pretty neat feat there!!! I tried searching for the screenshot you posted over at the 68kMLA, but couldn't find anything related to the topic and went as far as searching for just 'platinum' and 'disable' separately to make sure I didn't miss any relevant post does it retain the finder popup folder tabs and do the finder button view? These are two visual features I really like in Mac OS 8.1!Slightly off-topic: in the realm of enhancements plus eye candy, it's a sad note to add that while the 'Ides and Bride of Buster' both top my list as far as the System 7-era OSes, one of my favorite contextual menu tools, PopupFolder, while compatible with Mac OS 7.6.1, is incompatible with Mac OS 8.1 and my other equally favorite FinderPop doesn't run on any 68k Mac, but at least it runs on PPC Macs! So I mentioned both of these tools because FinderPop might actually work on your 68k version of this mix-matched Mac OS! (especially if the answer is 'yes' on the visual Mac OS 8.1 enhancements and even better if PopupFolder work on it!)
Last Edit: May 24, 2024, 21:49 by cballero
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #7 on: May 25, 2024, 01:01
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I had to take a peek as well... And yup it does seem possible with Basilisk II at least. At first, I simply swapped the 8.1 Finder for the 7.6.1 Finder and rebooted. No problem there, so next disabled the Appearance Control Panel and Extension, and rebooted once more. And there you go, Mac OS 8.1 without an Appearance Manager. How wise or stable this will be I don't know, having run it for only about 5 minutes  Also I don't know what it would be like on actual 68k or PPC hardware, or SheepShaver, etc. For example; How will it affect Contextual Menus in PPC 8.1? But it seems to be OK in B2, so far. -Hang on, nope, there's no control-click or right-mouse-button-click for drop-down menus in B2, so I assume Contextual Menu apps may be significantly affected in PPC Macs.However, What I do like about the Appearance Manger in Mac OS 8.1 and earlier, is that you can turn it off in the Control Panel, so that it only activates for programs which require it. This is a feature that was removed from 8.5 and up. And I still use programs that do require an Appearance Manger in Systems 7.1 and up. Such as RagTime 5, Toast 4 Dlx, Eudora 4, and others, which all require AM to be installed, to run in Mac OS 7.1+. The Appearance Manager gets to be installed on those systems, albeit, turned off in the CP, and activate only by programs that require it. So, interesting as it is, that OS 8.1 can do without AM, sans Contextual Menus, I think I'll be keeping AM around for now... And, heh, a couple of months ago I had tried running 8.1 without the AM, but I had not thought to swap the Finder for that of a 7.6.1 install. Here's what happened with that experiment. Genius idea to use the 7.6 Finder though, thanks.
Last Edit: May 25, 2024, 08:00 by MTT
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #8 on: May 25, 2024, 08:30
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I now have a dedicated Basilisk II install of 8.1 with Finder 7.5.6 - Here are a few additional observations. You lose the View Menu > Preferences settings, meaning you can't adjust your folder arrangements. Easy fix, copy over the "Views" Control Panel from a 7.6.1 install. You lose "Drag and Drop" and Clipping Files creation. Easy fix, copy over the "Clipping Extension" INIT from a 7.6.1 install. There is no Control click or Right-mouse-button-click for Contextual Menus. No way around this. You lose placing folders as tabs, at the bottom of the display. You lose "Sticky Menus". Installing 3rd party solutions such as "StickyClick" fixes this. You lose "Command-Option-Drag" to create aliases. Installing 3rd party solutions such as "Finder Options" fixes this. What you do gain is HFS+ Format/Read/Write ability without needing to resort to OS hacking. This is a big plus. All up, this is very System 7-like and has been a lot of fun for me, so far.
Last Edit: May 25, 2024, 08:34 by MTT
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Jatoba
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256 MB Posts: 270 System 9 Newcomer!
Reply #9 on: May 25, 2024, 11:32
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Time to put the 7.6.1 Finder... ... In Mac OS 9.2.2. Pretty nice find! As I thought, it could be done! Another route might be ResEdit-ing or HexEdit-ing the 8.1 Finder, as well, not to "seek" the Appearance Manager Control Panel (INIT) and Extension. I would love to see someone pursuing that route, as well!
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Knezzen
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Administrator 512 MB Posts: 608 Village idiot
Reply #10 on: May 25, 2024, 17:00
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A different approach which works as well is to replace the 7.6.1 "System" file with the one from Mac OS 8.1 on a regular Mac OS 7.6.1 install. You gain a lot of compatibility with Mac OS 8 but still get the look and feel and everything else from 7.6.1. Tested and working on my 8600
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Jatoba
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256 MB Posts: 270 System 9 Newcomer!
Reply #11 on: May 25, 2024, 18:20
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@Knez I guess you even get some early Carbon compatibility. Is it as speedy as 7.6.1/7.5.5, though? Also, who will be the first daredevil to try this with the System 8.5 file next?
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #12 on: May 26, 2024, 06:52
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@Knezzen: Your System file swap, has the same basic effect as the Finder swap. But your idea makes the process even easier. Especially if you have 7.6.1 set up to how you prefer it. This is a very good way to go, as opposed to the Finder swap into an 8.1 install. Just tried it out in another Basilisk II build. -Only one item needed disabling; "CFM-68k Runtime Enabler" (not required by OS 8.1). Love it ! Thanks.
Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 08:10 by MTT
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Knezzen
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Administrator 512 MB Posts: 608 Village idiot
Reply #13 on: May 27, 2024, 18:09
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Great that you got it working, MTT! Maybe this is the solution to my stability problems going forward and a way to get the best from both worlds... BTW, this in combination with the USB extensions from a 8.0 or 8.1 install is how you get rudimentary USB HID support in "7.6.1"
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alectrona6400
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16 MB Posts: 28 Curious nerd woman with crazy ideas!
Reply #14 on: May 28, 2024, 00:42
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Alright, I replaced the System file in my 7.6.1 install (backed up the old one in case something doesn't work) with the 8.1 System file... and WOW! This runs about the same, if not better, than 7.6.1 on my 6400/G3. I ran MacBench 5.0's CPU and Disk tests (Could run more, but I'll also need to get the ISO on this computer without it crashing while downloading such large files even with Monica), and the CPU speed was slightly better. However, disk speed was almost 50% higher on "7.7.1" compared to 7.6.1! Also note that Virtual Memory automatically gets enabled for some reason when you replace the System file so you'll need to disable it again.. at least that's what happened to me. Speaking of which, it's actually not causing a huge slowdown! Honestly I could see some people thinking this is heresy by replacing the 7.6.1 system with OS 8.1... but this does prove that 8.0 and 8.1 are really just jazzed up versions of 7.6. Mac OS 8.5 had a lot of stuff rewritten, and as such, requires Appearance Manager to work. Though I suppose I could try the System file implant from 8.5/8.6 to 7.6.1... however with 8.5 and up Appearance Manager will be enabled. Forever and always.
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