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| Author | Strange crashes in 7.6.1 (Read 65986 times) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Knezzen
Administrator 512 MB  Posts: 608 Village idiot 
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Reply #15 on: April 17, 2024, 08:30
Going to do more tests, but maybe it's time to say; ALL HAIL INTERNET EXPLORER 
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lauland
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512 MB  Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #16 on: April 17, 2024, 16:51
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Yeah, I was thinking we should test the different versions of Netscape and see if any particular one is better/worse than others. There's an api in MacOS 7/8/9 where an app can request extra "temporary" memory, outside of its normal heap (what you see in Get Info...), and I'm betting that is what gets stuck...as the entire heap is obviously getting returned to the system at quit. I'm a little shocked that the memory it grabs is never released. You'd think the OS would notice and free it when the app is gone. If we could identify the memory a little hack app could probably be written to find it and free it that you could run after using netscape. A real kludge, but if we couldn't otherwise figure the bug out, a fix of sorts. One thing to try is to give Netscape a lot more memory in Get Info, if it has enough, maybe it won't ask for the temporary memory? (Assuming that is what is happening).
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1179 System 7, today and forever
Reply #17 on: April 17, 2024, 23:21
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I wonder if any of the memory management system INITs would offer any help with that specific memory issue or further wreck this runaway memory train?  OptiMem/RAM Charger's claim to fame was in its ability to reclaim 'locked-up' memory. It's been highly reviewed at the Garden, but don't know if it'll help with this particular memory conflict? I'm hoping so since Netscape seems to do quite well with all sorts of web pages, so it'd be a shame if all of its versions turn out to have unsolvable memory issues  http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/ram-charger-301
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #18 on: April 18, 2024, 04:36
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Oh that's a really good idea! What I like to say in situations like this is, even if it doesn't solve the problem, it adds another data point. When you get enough data points, the picture becomes clearer. I think "Ram Doubler" (and it's ilk) are known to be much less than they purport to be...but...more data points. I just remembered I have a bootable 7.6 zip disk. I'm going to go see if my 7600 will start off it, so I can try and trigger the bug. (I'd already tried installing off a 7.6 cdrom...I normally run OS 9 on it...the install went "fine" but on reboot...only saw "Where have all my files gone?"...you guessed it, HFS+ drive!) One question...the eventual crash in CopyPalette()...you're pretty sure it's just from running out of memory, now? ---- Before I became a grey beard, I used to do desktop support (thankfully, mostly Mac) and this was the kind of thing I'd try and deal with all the time, so it's certainly bringing back memories!
Last Edit: April 18, 2024, 05:43 by lauland
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Jatoba
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256 MB Posts: 270 System 9 Newcomer!
Reply #19 on: April 18, 2024, 07:19
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Quote from: lauland One thing to try is to give Netscape a lot more memory in Get Info, if it has enough, maybe it won't ask for the temporary memory? (Assuming that is what is happening). Just what I thought of as well as I was reading your post! This should be the first thing to try, although I agree using those 3rd party programs might also be worth a try. Also, have you guys seen this? http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/mercutiohunlockpatch Could this be related? Would this help fixing this problem? Archived description of the problem: https://web.archive.org/web/20160516211239/https://digitalalchemy.com/mercutio/GDeviceProblem.html @lauland By the way, you can use HFS+ directly in System 7.5.5 and later, with some minor patching: http://system7today.com/forums/index.php?topic=3753.0
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daptdore
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4 MB Posts: 6 System 7 Newcomer!
Reply #20 on: April 18, 2024, 12:44
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For the "disappearing" memory problem after quitting Netscape, there are a couple of utilities that may be useful: Memory Mapper shows a graphical layout of the Mac memory space: http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/memory-mapper-15 Mac OS Purge can purge disposable System memory. (The description at the MG does not match the README description that I have.) The README says to run Mac OS Purge after quitting other applications to free up "junk" that may have been left around. http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/mac-os-purge
Last Edit: April 18, 2024, 12:46 by daptdore
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #21 on: April 27, 2024, 17:06
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Able to share some more experiences with the issue here :-) It has nothing to do with Netscape. I've got the error twice now this afternoon, semi-deliberatedly reproduced. Netscape wasn't launched at any point, so I don't think its memory leak is the issue here. Tried the Mercutio patcher that Jatoba suggested above (thanks!) but that didn't help either with the CopyPalette error. Finally, when MacsBug kicked in, I used "sc" and it answered me: Quote Calling chain using A6/R1 links. Back chain ISA caller. Ehem. You'd think the people that built such an awesome and easy-to-understand OS like System 7 would apply the same attitude towards error reporting, but no :-) Anyone finding anything helpful in the above? lauland?
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #22 on: April 27, 2024, 21:52
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You're not wrong! MacsBug would never be called user friendly. The screen should have had a bunch more info below that line. Here's garambo's screenshot of a Jabbernaut detour into MacsBug: https://revontulet.org/2024/04/23/c334cc9990f34608848ccdd57ef44f40.png Below the "Calling chain" message should show the last few functions that called each other, with the one just before the crash at the bottom (the crashed one and some disassembly below that). If you're lucky, that is...if the stack got too scrambled there might not be anything useful there. But if you do see which functions called CopyPalette, and, more important, the one that called that, etc, that can be key. The app that caused the crash is towards the upper left of the screen...which I really want to know if it wasn't Netscape. If you're getting these crashes in multiple apps, it makes me think system issues, an extension, or hardware problems... If you can, get a picture of the whole screen with your phone.
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #23 on: May 22, 2024, 13:38
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Resurrecting the thread to reiterate what MTT wrote about Netscape's daring memory leaks - as I'm on a 16 MB RAM IIci I can attest to it, at least for Netscape 2.0.2 and 3.01. While really fast compared to other browsers, it also chews up RAM and won't give it back. I'm going to give Mac OS Purge (see daptdore's post above) a try now and report back. Any news on the CopyPalette error @ knezzen ?
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wove
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1024 MB Posts: 1363
Reply #24 on: May 22, 2024, 14:42
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Netscape at that point was in some race to add "features" at the expense of stability. While Netscape was hands down the most capable browser at the time, it was also pretty flakey. Not to even mention that during that era everyone was hell bent on creating their own web presence with some very outlandish and poorly preforming web sites being created. During that time frame I was using MacWeb as my primary browser and switching to Cyberdog V2. Neither of those browsers was particularly capable or feature rich, however they were both very well behaved and stable. If they encountered material they could not render, they gracefully just ignored it. It always surprised me that in a trade off between features and stability, users seemed very happy to choose the features over stability. Personally if an application crashes twice on me, I just delete it and go looking for one that does not crash. Netscape has a know memory leak, so why would I even bother to install it?
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Knezzen
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Administrator 512 MB Posts: 608 Village idiot
Reply #25 on: May 24, 2024, 17:22
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No new info on the CopyPalette issue, Bolkonskij. I will give it a go this evening again and hopefully find something of use. And I agree about Netscape, wove. I have a hard time accepting nasty bugs like a known memory leak. Internet Explorer for president
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #26 on: May 24, 2024, 18:17
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I still haven't been able to reproduce the "CopyPalette" crash to MacsBug on my machine 7600...if anybody can get a consistent set of steps to trigger it, I can definitely poke around in MacsBug and try and figure out what REALLY is going on.
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Jatoba
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256 MB Posts: 270 System 9 Newcomer!
Reply #27 on: May 25, 2024, 11:35
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@Knez Mac Garden Gopher version sometime? :p
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #28 on: May 25, 2024, 16:25
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haha @knezzen, I didn't set Jatoba up for that posting, you have to believe me! :-)
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #29 on: May 26, 2024, 01:18
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Quote from: Bolkonskij: "I'm going to give Mac OS Purge (see daptdore's post above) a try"I remember using this one back in the day, specifically to try to fix Netscape's memory issue. It did not work for me. How did it go for you?
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