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| Author | Strange crashes in 7.6.1 (Read 65980 times) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Knezzen
Administrator 512 MB  Posts: 608 Village idiot 
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on: April 09, 2024, 18:32
So I've been having issues with my 8600 and Mac OS 7.6.1 since more or less day one. I get crashes on what feels like a irregular basis, but the crashes always happen when starting multiple applications or when switching between them. Today when I talked to Bolkonskij on the phone he tried to do start the same applications and we could reproduce the error on his 7500 with totally different specs. It surely must be some incompatibility in 7.6.1 making this happen? The crash is actually the application exiting with a bus error and since I have MacsBug installed I get this more specific error: http://revontulet.org/2024/04/09/1f858bef1b0b44a7a516d178357add49.jpg CopyPalette is a "Palette Manager" routine and it has been a part of Mac OS since System 6.0.5. The Color Picker extension is where it resides in 7.6.1 from what I can understand. So, any thoughts on the matter? The machine is rock solid in 8.6 and I can play Unreal Tournament for hours without it crashing, but sometimes switching from Netscape to Jabbernaut makes it go down in flames and it's always a bus error related to said CopyPalette routine. Help! 
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #1 on: April 09, 2024, 19:38
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While we were on the phone, Knezzen described his issue. I asked him what he had done and since my 7500 was booted up, I followed along (opened up Netscape, opened up HotStuff!, quit both, started iCab ... and - bam - ...same CopyPalette error). Don't recall seeing that one before but then I might just not have paid attention to it. The even funnier part is that you can't reproduce it every time. After I had rebooted, I tried the very same steps again ...but this time everything worked just fine. We were both using different software at the time (he started Netscape 4.8, Jabbernaut) while I used Netscape 2.0.1, HotStuff! and iCab). His 8600 runs with a graphics card, mine runs with on-board VRAM. On a first glance, it seems the only thing we share is the OS 7.6.1. Somebody ever run into this issue and got any idea about what this could be?
Last Edit: April 09, 2024, 19:45 by Bolkonskij
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Knezzen
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Administrator 512 MB Posts: 608 Village idiot
Reply #2 on: April 09, 2024, 19:40
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Yes! It's indeed not every time, just often enough to take away the fun of using the 8600 with 7.6.1.
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Jatoba
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256 MB  Posts: 270 System 9 Newcomer!
Reply #3 on: April 10, 2024, 09:42
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Very strange indeed. Have you guys tried to reproduce this using System 7.5.5, by the way? As well as Mac OS 8.0. You could perhaps even give 7.6 a go, too. I would start by trying to reproduce it on the "neighbouring" OS versions, and go on from there. This might help with the troubleshooting. Although the error complains about what sounds like some drawing exception, have you tried to see if this also happens when running, quitting and switching between apps that make NO use of networking whatsoever? Just in case.
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1176 System 7, today and forever
Reply #4 on: April 10, 2024, 22:54
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7.6 is more buggy, so maybe not that one, JT!  http://web.mit.edu/macdev/Development/Documentation/www/macos-info/macos_7.6_trouble.html Apple's Service Source PDF manual for 7.6.1 didn't offer any clues on this issue either: http://www.applerepairmanuals.com/the_manuals_are_in_here/MacOS_Updates_info/Mac_OS_7.6.1_Update.pdf Maybe a vanilla boot with OT and Internet/network extensions on to see if it makes any difference? 
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #5 on: April 11, 2024, 02:18
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You should try looking at the stack trace in MacsBug...and see which app/extension/etc is calling CopyPalette (and called that...and called that...etc). And just look at what a0 was at crash time...that address looks very strange...it could be valid, but the other address registers are in the 1xxxxxxx range, which makes it less likely. MacsBug should list which app the crash occurred in on the upper left hand side, which your screenshot doesn't show. (The CopyPallete address looks like rom, but something patched could be in the call chain, etc). I have a 7600 so I could test it there, since it's very similar (pretty much an 8500 without the video out chips, or a 7500 with a 604, I think)...I've never ran 7.6.1 on it, just 7.5/8/9, and it is rock solid then. If I get a chance, I'll install it.
Last Edit: April 11, 2024, 02:21 by lauland
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #6 on: April 13, 2024, 08:34
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Quote from: Bolkonskij and Knezzen who mused: "On a first glance, it seems the only thing we share is the OS 7.6.1."Not quite, Netscape is also a contender (despite version differences). I recall classic Mac versions of Netscape having a really bad memory issue that was never fixed in any of the version releases. The issue with Netscape was after quitting NS it would never release the memory it had occupied, back into the memory stack. What was worse, is you couldn't get that memory back until you rebooted the Mac. Here's my trusty Centris before and after surfing the waves today (well, the About This Mac info screen, at least) ;-) Not saying this is the culprit and running Netscape on PPC Mac with VM turned on will certainly disguise and dampen this condition right down. But if you run your classic PPC without VM on, regardless of whether or not you have oodle's of RAM at your disposal, then... Should you see most crashes while running, quitting, or jumping to other programs when using Netscape, it might be prudent to avoid using Netscape altogether, and stick to something less buggy in the memory department. Just to see if that improves things. Re 7.6: I always thought that the most rock solid stable 7.x System ever created was 7.5.5 and that was because Apple really worked hard on getting 7.5 perfected after such a wobbly start to 7.5, and I think that with 7.5.5 Apple achieved this. With 7.6, I felt that it was OK, but it was moving on to new ground away from 7. Copland was a disaster and they needed something new. 7.6.1 is really nice but I don't think it is as stable as 7.5.5 - Just my two bits though 
Last Edit: April 13, 2024, 08:49 by MTT
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Knezzen
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Administrator 512 MB Posts: 608 Village idiot
Reply #7 on: April 13, 2024, 10:09
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Good input, MTT! It was Jabbernaut that crashed the machine this time, but it's always seems to be together with Netscape being open. I have 512MB RAM in the 8600, so I'm running it with VM turned off. I'll see if I can turn it on and if that helps at all. I'll give 7.5.5 a go on the 8600 as well, since it looks like it's compatible.
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ShinobiKenobi
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256 MB Posts: 362 System 7 fan
Reply #8 on: April 13, 2024, 21:53
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Well I have a Power Macintosh 7200/75, running 7.5.3, so it's not very similar situations. But I get lock-ups all the time. The frustrating thing is that it usually happens from mundane normal things, like opening up a drive on the desktop, opening a menu, etc., or in the middle of an app running. It's probably totally unrelated to your crashes, though.
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Jatoba
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256 MB Posts: 270 System 9 Newcomer!
Reply #9 on: April 14, 2024, 10:05
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@ShinobiKenobi You should probably give 7.5.5 a try as the fix to those problems.
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ShinobiKenobi
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256 MB Posts: 362 System 7 fan
Reply #10 on: April 14, 2024, 11:58
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@Jatoba Alright, you've convinced me lol 
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #11 on: April 15, 2024, 18:44
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If you guys can get a screenshot of MacsBug after an "sc6" command I can sleuth some more. I'll get 7.6 on my 7600 at some point to try and reproduce what is happening to y'all.
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Knezzen
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Administrator 512 MB Posts: 608 Village idiot
Reply #12 on: April 15, 2024, 21:00
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I'll give that a go ASAP, lauland. Thanks for some great input as always
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #13 on: April 16, 2024, 01:25
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Quote from: Knezzen: "It was Jabbernaut that crashed the machine this time, but it's always seems to be together with Netscape being open.Yes, it doesn't matter really as to the program running, it's that Netscape had been running at sometime since the Mac was started up. It's because of the RAM "disappearing" from the Mac, even after Netscape has quit that's the problem. The Finder isn't aware of it and it's been locked up by "something", so other programs when they run, can move into occupied illegal memory spaces causing a system crash. The only way to get that RAM back is to reboot and not run Netscape while you do other things. In PPC Macs, running with VM switched on seems to keep Netscape from this behavior somewhat. You could also try using another browser (iCab) instead, to see if Jabbernaut is still causing issues. Make sure it's a fresh session and Netscape hasn't been run during that time since booting up.
Last Edit: April 16, 2024, 01:37 by MTT
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #14 on: April 17, 2024, 06:42
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If it really turns out to be essentially a Netscape issue, than this is epic. I was using Netscape 2.0.1 (released in 1996). Knezzen was on 4.8 (from 2002). That undetected (?) memory leak would span a development phase of six year. This calls for further testing.
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