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| Author | Next project ideas? (Read 43575 times) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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lauland
512 MB  Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer! 
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Reply #15 on: April 21, 2024, 04:11
Open General: This'd require probably EXACTLY the same sort of skill/knowledge/effort that PETSCII Robots does/would. But likely it is a bit more complex...PETSCII is really small and clean, source and requirements wise. (I don't think I could find a better example for teaching/learning/getting-your-feet-wet if I tried). I'm inclined to lump this into a "System 7 game porting" topic in general (ha!) we could discuss, using PETSCII as an example slash starting point. I think it's one of those things that once you've done one, doing more becomes exponentially easier. So if I can inspire/guide/help/kick-your-asses porting PETSCII, this would definitely be "The second game the System7today community ported to low end Macs as a group". Eh? One can only hope... |
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #16 on: April 21, 2024, 04:26
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TV Tower: Looks like lots of fun! I need to give it a try. Loved those sim games in the past! Unfortunately it looks really modern design and tool wise. Getting it to run might really be doing a System 7 port of BlitzMaxNG. So it probably has a bunch of modern library dependencies, and porting each one of those would be the actual challenge. Not impossible, but I'm thinking it could explode into a whole lot of sub projects, and a lot of work. I hate to guess how feasible it'd really be because we could hit ONE particular dependency that we just can't get working on System 7, possibly due to limitations of the OS itself. Then again...we could find a replacement, etc etc etc. I'm going to break this one out into a general "System 7 game porting" discussion, again. Maybe it'll be our "third game"?!?
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1176 System 7, today and forever
Reply #17 on: April 21, 2024, 07:44
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So I admit, my ask for the MP3 adjustments does dance along the emulation side of things, which is exactly where it makes sense to use it (much to Bolkonskij's chagrin, since we all know using real Macs is where the true and full joy of the Mac experience does lie) On older Android devices and Chromebooks, Basilisk II runs fast and smoothly, albeit the 8-bit audio issue I mentioned, but thankfully 68040 pointed out a way to runs a more up-to-date Basilisk II to avoid such issues. And there's such an abundance of tech available at such a low cost, parents and kids anywhere can run simple Android devices to enjoy the gambit of educational and recreational classic Mac games without investing in real Mac tech. From this stems the desire to update MPEGDEC for easier LAN and Internet MP3 streaming, especially in a homeschooling scenario. The same goes for the EPUB conversion or to have an HTML/XML reader since the file format is really a ZIP file composed of web files, so the hump is exactly what you outlined: seeing if there's a reader with source code that could be scrolled back enough to use on Classic PowerPC Macs first, a lot like the first part of your dev journey with Goliath. The PalmPilot had a ebook DOC program and file format that ran on its 68k processor as an early ebook format as well, but finding something opensource similar to Goliath would be ideal. So I'm thinking that something like RTF, DOC or HTML conversion might end up being the best option in the end since all three have what's needed to best emulate an ebook on the Classic Mac, both 68k and PPC, right? And in the case of HTML, then such files could be accessed from a host server as links for easy library access.
Last Edit: April 21, 2024, 07:46 by cballero
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68040
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512 MB Posts: 950 68k - thy kingdom come, thy will be done !
Reply #18 on: April 21, 2024, 15:33
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Quote from: Knezzen The point of getting it compiled is to use it to connect to something on 68k. Works OK now, but it's quite buggy.Doesn't work for me. I can't connect that darn thing to a glue stick.
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68040
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512 MB Posts: 950 68k - thy kingdom come, thy will be done !
Reply #19 on: April 21, 2024, 15:36
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Quote from: Neal_SE30 Well now you’re asking. I’ve never managed to get email to work on a b&w 68k mac. There must be a simple solution as nothing I’ve tried has worked.I've got it working flawlessly on B-II emulating a Quadra. But it does require some resources to spare.
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68040
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512 MB Posts: 950 68k - thy kingdom come, thy will be done !
Reply #20 on: April 21, 2024, 15:39
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And about MP3 Playback: On my B-II setup all Mac audio files (MP3, Mod, SND) play with astonishing clarity. But given that I use PulseAudio I couldn't vouch if that sounds anywhere near as good on actual vintage hardware.
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB  Posts: 2023
Reply #21 on: April 21, 2024, 16:48
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Quote from: lauland "Attack of the PETSCII Robots": I've already done the heavy lifting. It starts, it reads the keyboard, and it displays bitmaps. If any of you want to start learning game programming or C/C++ on classic MacOS or just hone your skills, it is, frankly, ideal. oh my, now you're really tempting us ... :-D I have two unfinished Mac games for System 7 on my hard disk. Both written from ground-up. Because I like the process of writing from scratch - identifying the problems, laying out the solution. Down to sitting there and thinking about good names for my routines. Porting always feels "untidy" (for lack of a better English word) if you know what I mean. I don't feel like I'm in full control and knowing things and that kind of puts me off. But with both my games development has stalled because it turned out to be such a chore looking up info on routines etc. ... I spent 95% searching and 5% coding and as such it started to feel more like a hassle than something I'd do in my free time. And truth to be told, I'm not a good enough programmer to solve some of the stuff on my own. Your efforts really motivate me to get back to C on the Mac again. Please go ahead and open up your thread. There's several of us who might be interested in learning.
Last Edit: April 21, 2024, 17:55 by Bolkonskij
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #22 on: April 21, 2024, 17:17
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Quote from: lauland What I did to get Goliath building didn't really need coding per se, but enough bull headed stubbornness to wrangle libraries, settings and figuring out what was really going on in compiler warning/errors. You're on to something very important. One reason I really respect your work is because you share your thought process and your ideas with us here. You don't deliver solutions to a problem. Because if you think about it, solutions are effectively a way of obfuscating knowledge. When I was still working my web dev job, I noticed at one point that increasingly almost everybody only went looking for solutions anymore. Whereas earlier you'd sit together and talk about a problem (and thereby often discover how to solve a problem), knowledge simply started to evaporate once we began jumping from one solution to the other, without taking the time to understand the whole story / problem. Before I quit my dev job, I was about to become one of them. It's tempting and appears to make life much easier! But in the end, it was one of the reasons I quit that career. I'd jump on to StackOverflow like the others, where solutions are offered in a way you don't have to think about the problem. (e.g. "How can I ...?" - "Use function X in framework Y for that"). This leads to the disappearance of knowledge, not its increase. I've come to the conclusion that it is no surprise we got the tech world of today that we have. That said, thank you again for your efforts! Please don't get discouraged if at one point nobody answers or jumps onto a promising project. What you do is great and is highly appreciated - please continue as long as you can!
Last Edit: April 21, 2024, 17:53 by Bolkonskij
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #23 on: April 21, 2024, 20:48
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Every one of those projects is worthy...and I have to say (in as loud and booming a voice that I can manage): Why not ALL of them? My challenge to you all is, if you're interested in one of those projects, start a new topic about just it, and we'll start the discussion. I'll be there for what I can contribute. I just can't (and definitely wouldn't want to) lead them or be the only guy doing the work. Like, for the XML editor and EPUB Reader: Start looking for an existing open source package, for ANY platform that does what you need. We'll take it apart and figure out the logistics/feasibility of getting the beast to run on a System 6 MacPlus (or whatever). I'll start a PETSCII Robots topic, and that could include game porting/writing in general...or we keep it just about PETSCII as a learning example (since it's so clean and simple) and talk about porting larger games separately. The mp3 player is already running, so it's not clear to me what exactly needs to be done...go ahead and start a new topic on it. Be on the lookout for a new Jabbernaut thread...coming soon! If I've missed anything...start a new topic for it! ---- It's good to hear reading my fumbles and missteps has been enjoyable to some, and not just an irritation to everybody. I feel like it's important to share, especially mistakes. The very very last thing I want to do is intimidate anybody who doesn't consider themselves a programmer, able to contribute, or are just beginning. I hope seeing how the sausage is made, so to speak, takes the scary magic out of it and shows it really isn't rocket science. Anyone can code, and everybody probably has SOMETHING to contribute to whatever, etc. ---- Bolkonskij you have an excellent point, there are good reasons I'm NOT a professional software developer, or musician, for my day job. I enjoy both those things and early on realized I didn't ever want to take the joy out of them, be beholden to people I didn't respect (or didn't respect me), and/or have deadlines hanging over my head. I'd still do my day job, even if I weren't paid (and were independently wealthy!), but definitely not 40 hours every week. Some weeks 20...but yeah, some weeks MORE than 40. But we could go on and on about this sort of thing...
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Jatoba
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256 MB Posts: 270 System 9 Newcomer!
Reply #24 on: April 24, 2024, 13:14
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I'm getting enticed over the prospects of fiddling with "Attack of the PETSCII Robots" for the learning aspect, as well. If it compiles as is right now, even if unfinished, I'd be more than happy to tear that source code apart, and pick up the remains for what I want to make myself. I read all your threads and comments earnestly and with anticipation, @lauland, and I know some others here do exactly the same. We even talk about it amongst ourselves! One of my favorites is the CodeBuilder / MachTen discussion over compiling GCC 3.0 in the Mac Garden! You guys are amazing. I'm surprised just how many of you guys are not devs for a living (or not anymore). I swear, most of the best devs are the ones who do it only as a hobby. It's making me question my own professional path! (In a good way, don't worry.) Maybe I should contribute to humanity and open up a farm! Can't have enough of those, especially in these days! Gotta work the earth and provide others with quality food! In any case, I, for one, am not intimidated nor overwhelmed by the wealth of information shared, even though I'm not familiar with C++ (and have a preference for plain C). It gives me more confidence to start poking at things, if anything!
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #25 on: April 24, 2024, 18:28
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PETSCII: Oh, it compiles (both cw and xcode) and runs (ppc, m68k and carbon)...see here for screenshots: https://tinkerdifferent.com/threads/interest-in-a-system-6-7-version-of-attack-of-the-petscii-robots.320/ If you're interested, here's your homework: Take a look at SDL_FillRect() and put in the QuickDraw call to fill a rectangle. If you can't figure out what color it should use...I think that might be why I didn't do it myself...try making it clear a rectangle to the background color. If it works that will probably make the white squares in the screenshots black... I'll start that new topic and can list the TODO list of things needs work to finish it... ---- I'm glad you brought up MachTen...I saw a post at macos9lives where someone was thinking about trying to build GCC 3.x and wanted to warn slash let them know of our previous efforts, which I just did...and while typing I had a fresh idea, which I'll add to the discussion over at MG. (Use the m68k MachTen to build it, the m68k version has more sophisticated memory management than ppc one). ---- I do get to do little bits of coding constantly in my work, but most is scripting, xml, yml and (yikes) php...EXTREMELY rare I get to use my C. I think it's the mindset and skills that carry over. It's one of those things that you "are" regardless of if you do it professionally. As in I AM a "software developer", was probably born one. Same as being a musician...even if you don't get paid for it, you're still a musician if you make music!
Last Edit: April 24, 2024, 18:30 by lauland
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #26 on: May 25, 2024, 05:51
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Ok, I've got time and some manic energy on my hands, so I'm looking for what to work on next... My only requirement is that it not be a completely solo thing. I don't mind doing the "heavy lifting" of getting things started, or "unstuck" like with Jabbernaut. But unless it's something I'm personally interested in, or can learn from, I have no desire to do ALL the work. ---- Snes1423 mentioned in another post about how there are much newer, less buggy Gameboy and/or SNES emulators out there (and the ones that do exist for classic Macs are too "Platinum" for their tastes  )...back porting one of those is a possibility. The issues would be mostly getting a basic gui and Mac-ifying them. But, if there's something like x86 assembly in there (cpu emulation typically, but also optimizations), that's a whole other kettle of fish!As an example, I back ported this from PPC to m68k, but it was pretty trivial: https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/macuae-086 ---- Then there's all the things you guys mentioned before: EPub reader (base it on Plucker?), mp3 player (streaming?), Open General, TV Tower, etc. If any of you are willing to join an effort for any of those, I'm you're guy. ---- If nobody has any suggestions, I'm thinking of looking into Linux and NetBSD. For Linux, in the m68k port ADB doesn't work on 160/170/180 powerbook and I'm thinking of tackling that. I did work on early support in the kernel for lower end Amigas, so know my way around it... Very weird ADB doesn't work on those machines...you'd think they'd be extremely similar to other Macs...are they missing interrupts, or is it wired differently so the bits in the registers are in different places? Or is it just the case that nobody cares enough to work on it? (NetBSD does work, so looking at the code there to figure it out would be a first step). I've never done much at all with NetBSD (or FreeBSD and OpenBSD) so am interested in playing with it on both m68k and ppc. This'd just be installing and using it, no coding unless there's something needed...I'd just love to have either Linux or NetBSD on my PB 540, but, with a crippled lc040 I doubt that's a possibility...unless FPU support were completely removed...which'd involve rebuilding every single binary, which wouldn't be impossible with BSD since the entire source tree is there. ---- And of course there's fixing bugs in anything else that source exists for...
Last Edit: May 25, 2024, 06:00 by lauland
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1176 System 7, today and forever
Reply #27 on: May 25, 2024, 07:05
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"..that source exists for" the only thing outside of the Mac OS I'd love to see updated is the Android port of Basilisk II; just uncertain if the app could be fiddled with in some form to update its emulator internals. Many like the emulator for older mobile devices and Chromebooks, especially real low end ones that can't even run Linux. The incentive there are the drastic emulation improvements and stability of the newer BII versions. Again, homeschooling education opportunities are ripe for emulation tools, including overseas whenever I have a chance to go abroad with a little tech to give away (15-25 cheap Android devices and Chromebooks) what better than with a bit of software to learn and have fun with? That's one of my passions behind all of these web streaming audio, video and even epubs converted to web pages: the ultimate low end media center, along with fun and edu games and productivity programs, that can even work on 68k emulated and real Macs!  My biggest regret was never to have pushed myself to code beyond web dev 
Last Edit: May 25, 2024, 18:10 by cballero
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #28 on: May 25, 2024, 09:53
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Quote My biggest regret was never to have pushed myself to code beyond web dev Coming from a web dev background as well, I dare say you have some good basics. It's never too late to start. Let's get going and start asking @lauland dumb questions about the Toolbox and porting stuff ;-) My problems right now is rather that with 42 years and a family you're much less flexible in terms of free time than when you're 17. But diving into this material takes time, silence (sigh) and dedication. I'm looking into making some arrangements so I can do it (again). Maybe you will too? Would be fun to have a few Mac coding novices do this together :-)
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #29 on: May 26, 2024, 06:12
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"..that source exists for": I was thinking there are several classes of programs that I might be useful in getting running on older systems: The easier ones... Requires PPC, but runs on 7.5.x (or 8.0/8.1). Requires 8.5 or 9.x. Requires Carbon. But then... Requires MacOS X, not just Carbon. Runs on Windows. Runs on Linux, etc. ---- One thing I have had an interest in looking into is the state of SDL and OpenGL on classic MacOS. Older versions of both are available on PPC, but not m68k. The SDL is only version 1.x, which is missing the drawing engine (so to speak), and so a lot of games that use it can't be easily ported. It's not likely, because it'd be a HUGE amount of work, if even possible, and there are diminishing returns on slower CPUs, but getting a version of SDL 2, or a somewhat compatible OpenGL "shim" like the ancient Glide for 3dfx (which didn't support real OpenGL at first), is something I've been thinking about. ---- Depending on how far down the rabbit hole you guys went with Web Development, those are transferable skills. If you dabbled in JavaScript and/or PHP at all, just wrapping your brain around coding shapes things in there (a way of thinking). I won't say it's a tiny leap, to Think/Symantec/CodeWarrior, but I think the frustration of endless edit/compile/run/crash/reboot cycles, and the trouble of documentation not being in a modern/usable format are what actually puts people off, rather than the basic concept of "programming". And especially with larger projects, like JabberNaut, just building the thing takes an appreciable amount of time. There's little of the instant gratification of hitting Reload in the browser to see changes you made, etc. Time as adults with families we don't have to spare! Especially after working a 40 hour job. Sometimes the very last thing you want to do is stare at yet another screen for an hour (minimum). Even more so since if you're using actual old hardware the screens sometimes leave something to be desired (at least on laptops)! ---- But with all that said, for whatever reason I find myself with the time and patience, and sheer hard headedness. I know asking (some of) the same of you guys is not a small thing. I was telling someone about this (and other) sites and all you guys and they asked me, "So, what do you get out of this?" Me: "I want to show it's not rocket science, it can be scary at first staring at code, but it's all just text files, and I want to share my knowledge, and have them experience the magic of turning them into something that runs. There's barriers, and I want to help people over them." Them: "Sure...but what do YOU want to get out of this? Why do you want to do that?" After MUCH discussing of ego, selflessness, motivations for volunteer work, what feedback and what others say can mean, etc etc etc, we came down to what is really going on: "I want a certain environment/place, haven't been able to find it, and so want to see how I could sow the seeds, and help build it myself, since it doesn't already exist.". Yow! I hadn't thought about it at all. I had given myself a gold star for being so generous and altruistic for giving my time and wanting to hep teach. Now, having had my head shrunk back to normal proportions, I feel the need to apologize for just showing up and very noisily randomly throwing seeds around a perfectly good site. (Fair warning, I guess I DID try throwing some around MG, but they didn't take!)
Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 06:20 by lauland
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