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| Author | Angry Robots - new logic-puzzle game coming for 68k System 7 (Read 122072 times) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Bolkonskij
Administrator 1024 MB  Posts: 2023 
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Reply #15 on: November 12, 2023, 17:47
Interesting! The screen redraws when moving are noticable on my IIci as well, but it didn't really bother me much. You're using the regular QuickDraw calls to draw? I can gladly test on 7.1 and 6.0.8 on the IIci for you - unfortunately I don't have any 68020 machines (original LC or Mac II) for testing in colour. Good to hear about the release date and the availability on the website! Keep going, looking forward to the full version :-) |
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MTT
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256 MB  Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #16 on: November 14, 2023, 06:52
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I don't have an actual Mac II, but the demo game runs well for me in the Mac II build of Mini vMac. Mini vMac II, 8MB RAM, 8 bit color, System 6.0.8 and System 7.1.1 - Both good.
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #17 on: November 15, 2023, 07:39
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MTT, one thing I notice on my IIci is a visible screen draw when moving the robot e.g. to the left or right. It's not slowing down things but it is noticable. You experience such a thing with the emulator as well?
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #18 on: November 16, 2023, 02:40
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Not overly noticeable, but there is something there. A very quick "blip" or flash of the screen updating. I find it works a lot smoother if you just click the destination square of where you want the robot to go to, and the robot then walks directly to that square. Destination is in a direct line only. i.e.; You can't click a square around a corner and get the robot to go there. e.g.; If destination is 2 squares forward and 5 squares up. Click the 2nd square forward, wait for the robot to get there, then click the 5th square up.
Last Edit: November 16, 2023, 02:43 by MTT
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #19 on: November 16, 2023, 09:47
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Yeah, I noticed the mouse control but I really enjoy using the cursor keys for moving my robot around. Feels more natural to me. Really looking forward to the full thing :-)
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Nightingale
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16 MB Posts: 17 Stuck in the '90s
Reply #20 on: November 17, 2023, 00:13
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Thanks for the testing, everyone! Mostly the reason the game even has mouse control is for the Mac Plus I have which I haven't been able to get an affordable keyboard for! I'm also not a huge fan of mouse movement. I'll take a look at my drawing routines and see if there is any where else to improve efficiency. I have already improved the efficiency a lot since the initial concept, so I don't know if I'll be able to speed up the drawing any more. One of the fun parts of developing for vintage systems is figuring out how to get the most out of a limited system to get the best results! Interesting that you say it's more noticeable with keyboard vs mouse control. I have hard coded a keyboard repeat rate rather than using the system repeat rate to stop people from adjusting the repeat rate in the control panel to be able to play the game faster or slower. So if you hold your cursor key down, it will move at the same rate as the mouse movement. But if you mash the arrow keys, you can move as fast as your fingers can take you. So I wonder if you're moving faster, and that's causing you to see the redraw more than with the mouse. If you just hold the cursor key down it should look the same as if using the mouse. I spent a few weeks experimenting with different systems for controlling how fast you can move the robot. It was about striking the right balance between timing the movement to work with the mechanics of the game versus making the game feel responsive and initiating movement as soon as you hit a key. Ultimately this is what I chose, knowing I would probably revisit later. If you have a system that has Color QuickDraw, it will use the more memory intensive colour routines even if you manually change the game to black & white in the options menu. So I may also consider re-writing that so it uses the basic quickdraw routines if you are in B&W mode to make it draw more efficiently. If the flickering bothers you, you could force this mode right now by adjusting the allotted memory in the Finder Info window down to 400k. If it doesn't have enough memory for colour it will load in true B&W mode. I'll give this more thought and put it on my list of things that need attention.
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #21 on: February 12, 2024, 15:00
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Nightingale seems to be continuing his efforts! Quote So excited to showcase the packaging for Angry Robots! I've just received enough boxes and labels to create 125 boxed copies of the game! I hope we'll still be able to order this without kickstarter etc. :-)
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #22 on: February 14, 2024, 17:30
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I think a machine with only a 68000 capable of doing color is rarer than hen's teeth...but '020's would be the original LC or II. There aren't many '020 accelerators (for good reasons), and even they wouldn't be in the high mhz range...so detecting that processor would probably be a good idea.
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Nightingale
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16 MB Posts: 17 Stuck in the '90s
Reply #23 on: March 24, 2024, 21:09
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Things are indeed moving along! I think we're on track to release the game on schedule in May. There will be a Shareware version available for download, in addition to both the boxed copy and digital download being for sale on my website. I'll be sure to keep everyone posted! I've re-written a few graphics routines to try to make things more efficient, and I appreciate the testing you folks did with the earlier demo. I wonder if there are some System 7 folks on here who could help me out with a quick test? The System 7 Today users so far have been the most helpful for testing and giving feedback. Angry Robots will run on any Macintosh in black and white, and runs well even on a 68000 CPU. However, using colour mode requires Color Quickdraw, which, from what I've been able to deduce, is only available in ROM if you are using a machine with a 1MB ROM. Basic QuickDraw, even on colour capable systems, can only display 8 colours, and using it would require a substantial re-write of the way the game gets graphics and draws them to the screen. So that means any Mac with a ROM smaller than 1MB will need to run System 7 in order to make use of Color QuickDraw. In my emulator testing (since I only have so many old macs), using Mini vMac II, colour mode is laggy. The game runs fine in an emulator in B&W using System 6. However, since I am using System 7 to get access to Color QuickDraw, I assumed running in colour was the slow part. But when I disable it and use Basic QuickDraw for B&W in System 7, it runs just as slow. So I'm starting to think that maybe the emulator is just slow at running System 7, and maybe it has nothing to do with Color QuickDraw. This is where I would appreciate if a few people could do some testing on real machines to see if my theory holds true. I've created a simple test application here (http for old systems). If you have access to an older colour-capable Mac, would you be willing to download this file and test this for me? I would like to know: - Which Mac model are you using? - Try running the game in both colour and B&W modes in both System 6 and System 7. Just walk your robot quickly from one side of the map to the other to see how the scrolling looks. - Does it run smoothly in both modes in both systems? Or is it laggy? Will it even run in colour under System 6? I would greatly appreciate the feedback from anyone who is willing to run this test for me!
Last Edit: March 24, 2024, 21:14 by Nightingale
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #24 on: March 25, 2024, 16:03
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Quote The System 7 Today users so far have been the most helpful for testing and giving feedback. Thanks! But I guess that's because many of us are actually daily using our System 7 Macs ... :-) Tonight is planned out, but I'll boot up my IIci tomorrow and test run it on both System 6 and System 7.
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Jatoba
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256 MB Posts: 270 System 9 Newcomer!
Reply #25 on: March 25, 2024, 17:14
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This probably won't help much as feedback since the request was specifically for System 6 and 7, but I tested the Colour demo above under Mac OS 9.2.2 on a Mac mini G4 1.5GHz model, and it ran normally and just fine both in B&W and Color modes. Sound both on and off. All was fine on my end.
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #26 on: March 26, 2024, 15:25
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Alright, kept my promise and did the testing. Transfered your little Colour Test to the IIci via Sneaker Net (Floppy) and ran it on both 6.0.8 and 7.1. Remember, it's a 68030 @ 25 Mhz. There's no colour in Colour Test Seriously, I kid you not. The demo from 2023 runs fine and in colour on my IIci. But the Colour Test you've linked to in your post only runs in black & white. I've tried 16 colours, I've tried 256 colours - nothing. It always runs only in b&w. Same result on both System 6 and System 7. (Here's a photo) As for good news - it runs fine and in a very good speed on both systems. System 6 is a tad bit faster in drawing I'd say, but it's trivial (at least to me). It feels less "choppy" than that older demo (see this thread for my prior experience), so thumbs up on the re-write. Now, if you can only bring back colour ... ;-)
Last Edit: March 26, 2024, 15:57 by Bolkonskij
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Nightingale
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16 MB Posts: 17 Stuck in the '90s
Reply #27 on: March 26, 2024, 16:47
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Jatoba - appreciate the testing! If it didn't run well on a G4 I would be concerned. But it just goes to show how much Apple was committed to backwards compatibility in those days. That something that was designed to run on a 1986 Macintosh Plus on one of the first commercially successful GUI operating systems also runs well on a "modern" G4 Mac Mini is a testament to the longevity of the original Macintosh. Sad that Apple has seemingly abandoned that commitment with their new systems, dropping compatibility for old software after only a few years when they move to a new architecture. But alas, I digress. Bolkonskij - Apologies if this is a stupid question, but did you enable colour mode in the Options menu? I realize now that I had colour mode disabled by default in the options menu. I am glad to hear that B&W mode runs more smoothly. That furthers my suspicion that the emulator I'm using is not good with System 7. And unfortunately (for testing purposes) newer emulators run way too fast to get any idea of what it would be like on real hardware.
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #28 on: March 27, 2024, 14:42
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Aha! Not a stupid question at all. It was indeed disabled by default and I didn't even bother to check the preferences. Good call! (IIRC there was a Toolbox routine to check on startup for whether colour is available ... will you be using it?) Anyway, colour works now! Runs maybe a tad bit slower in colour than it does on b&w on my IIci, but it's really marginal if you ask me (and it's highly subjective...) So, way to go! You got it to run nicely on original 1989 hardware. Thumbs up! 35 years earlier and you might have landed a super hit and could have retired early ... ;-)
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Nightingale
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16 MB Posts: 17 Stuck in the '90s
Reply #29 on: March 27, 2024, 22:39
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Thanks for the testing! Glad B&W is running smoother now. The game does check whether colour is available on startup, and if it's not available, it would disable colour as an option and start in B&W mode. But if you made the decision to run in B&W mode even if colour was available, the game will remember that and start in B&W mode next time. As it happens, I just forgot to re-enable colour mode before stuffing the file! At this point, I think I've optimized as much as possible, so users who have colour available but find it a bit sluggish will be able to manually switch to B&W.
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