It was 40 years ago ... in Mac history



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Author	It was 40 years ago ... in Mac history (Read 349066 times)
Bolkonskij Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023	Reply #15 on: May 01, 2025, 09:32 Another event in April 1985 was Apple's announcement to discontinue the Mac XL (Apple Lisa) which left some people quite unhappy: Quote from: Steve Schramm, 30-April-1985 Boy, was I a fool. I went out and bought a Lisa last January after Apple renamed it the Mac XL and lowered the price. I thought that this was a statement by Apple that the Lisa was to be incorporated into the Mac world and supported. It now seems that it ended up as an inventory reduction scheme. sigh So, what do I do now? I've always liked Apple, and I was planning on trying to develop software for the Mac on my Lisa, so I had bought Macworks and Lisa Workshop. Alas, it isn't much fun trying to get Mac stuff to run on a Lisa, nor is it much comfort knowing that the computer which I have come to depend on for my personal tasks is now dead. So, I guess my questions are several: 1) Is there anyone else out there in the same spot as I am? I realize that almost all (100%?, 90%?, 51%?) of you are happy, satisfied Mac users, and from the messages, it's clear that you know what you are doing and have a good view of what's going on. However, since I was foolish enough to buy a Lisa, if you could take a moment out and put yourself in my spot, what would you feel, what conclusions would you draw, and how would this affect your attitude towards Apple? 2) Will this mean that almost no one will write software for the Lisa, and more importantly, does this mean that Mac developers will no longer care whether Mac applications run on Lisa? bigger sigh 3) Before all of the Lisa folks disappear into the foliage, could people please tell me of any software (other than the office system) that run on the Lisa? I want to try and get stuff before people fold up their tents and join a different (i.e. more profitable) market.
Last Edit: May 01, 2025, 09:36 by Bolkonskij
Bolkonskij Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023	Reply #16 on: May 17, 2025, 15:34 Finder 4.1 is out! ;-) Quote from: Chuq von Rospach,May 8th 1985 I picked up the new software release from a local dealer today. It comes on two disks (one for finder/system related stuff, one for macwrite/macpaint). Details are: finder4.1, macwrite4.5, and macpaint1.5. There was also a macdraw1.7 on the second disk, but since I don't have macdraw I didn't get a copy. It comes with a few other things -- a macwrite document describing the macwrite changes, a macwrite document describing the other changes, features of the new finder, and installation instructions. It includes a new program to replace font mover that does both fonts and DA's, a new Imagewriter file, the new Choose Printer DA, and a font called Taliesin (I like the man that named it that... grin) that is Apple's version of Cairo (pictoral, not text, with interesting things in it. It is NOT Cairo, though...). It is very well thought out. I've been able to update my system files in place, which is nice because they are hacked and burned into submission, including lots of DA's, fonts, and Ramdisk's installed. No problems at all, everything went in first time -- kudo's to Apple on this one, especially since I didn't relish starting over and re-updating all of that stuff into new system files. Fortunately, you don't have to. MacPaint1.5 is functionally the same as the earlier version, as far as I can tell. There is no documentation as what is fixed or changed, so I assume it was mainly minor fixing and tweaking. MacWrite4.5 is the disk based MacWrite. Seems fast, converts (one direction only) old format MacWrite files. The only file I've converted yet grew a bit, but I don't know if this is typical yet. I'm glad to see that Apple recognizes that DA's need to be moved around by users -- not everyone can get DAMover, now they don't need it. The new finder is fast. Quite fast. Until I played with this one, I never really realized how the old one dragged (maybe I did, but didn't care). The mac now acts much more like a racehorse instead of farm hors. Even better, they've figured out how to get rid of a lot of the annoying disk swaps -- these were particularly annoying for me when doing complete disk copies, and they're gone. If you eject the startup disk, it doesn't ask for it back nearly as often as it used to, which is quite nice (this is a 512K mac, so it may be different for a smaller one). Absolutely amazing what a bit of tuning can do for you. Directories aren't heirarchical, as the open file box acts the same as before, but the empty folder doesn't sit on the desktop anymore -- there is a new menu item to create them. Other new features: the shutdown menu item that replaces the public domain DA Eject&Reset; a Minifinder feature that looks like it will replace the public domain DA SkipFinder (I haven't played with it yet, so I'm not exactly sure); dragging a disk icon to the trash ejects the disk (the old way, of forcing you to eject first, was a pain.. huzzah!), and you can now move in any show file mode on the desktop like you could when you were showing icons, including renaming files and starting applications. It's fast, too.... The new imagewriter looks to be the previously posted (from the software tools disks) Imagewriter15 or some update of it. The new macwrite/macpaint don't seem to require Imagewriter on their disk like before, either, so if you are like me and load it into a ramdisk with the system file, you don't need to keep it on the other disks as well anymore. It's obvious to me that Apple listened to what was said out there -- the new features are things picked up from PD implementations of missing things, the problems seem to be fixed, and the performance seems to be tuned. Apple put a good bit of work into it to make it easy to upgrade, too, and that's at least as important as getting it working. Now, if I could only get MacTerminal2.0.... grin And may it quit whirring my disk... hint.. Please check with your local dealer for the disks. To my knowledge, Apple hasn't approved distribution of this stuff over the net so I won't ship copies to people who ask or post it. If Apple DOES want to make it available over the net (hint, hint, Apple) I'll be happy to do so for them, but only if they let me know...

lauland 512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!	Reply #17 on: May 18, 2025, 07:50 It's so funny reading someone 40 years ago, making the same sort of comments we still do today when a new version of the OS comes out!

snes1423 256 MB Posts: 458 A Man born of Mechina	Reply #18 on: May 18, 2025, 08:55 Yes but one thing ive noticed about using pre NT/Unix version's of macOS and Windows is instability must have been far more common 40 years ago

wove 1024 MB Posts: 1363	Reply #19 on: May 18, 2025, 13:43 Apple always did have a contentious relationship with dealers. Team Electronics was a dealer in a town not too far away. They were mainly known for selling high end stereo gear. When you went in you always had to make clear you were there for Macintosh computers not Macintosh stereos and looking for Apple disks meant floppies, not Beatles records. While Apple said the System Software was a free upgrade, that dealer did expect to get money for the disks and the time to make the disks, so the updates generally set you back a chunk of money, You ended up buying a pack of Apple branded floppies. A 10 pack was ~$40 and Macs were not fast at disk duplicating, so they could nail you for another $40 for an hours labor. Many (most?) Macs at that time lacked hard drives, so you were not really upgrading your software, so much as you were just replacing one disk for another. Until System 6, Apple upgraded components separately, so sometimes it was new system level items, that you needed and other times it was just a new Finder, you needed. Overall it was a headache for the customer and from all the bitching at the dealer, I suppose it was not easy for the dealer either. With System 6 I stopped at 6.0.5. From then on changes to System 6 were mostly just adding support for newer hardware. Over all the early Systems were fairly stable. On floppy based systems you were running one application at a time. By and large everything was stable and ran well. A hard drive based system running without the multi-Finder again ran one application at a time and was very stable. The multi-Finder and Apple's implementation of multi-tasking was a kludge (and that is being kind). It did get much better over time, but @snes1423 is right it was never really fixed. It was simply replaced with OS X. Instability I think drove the rise of Suites of software. One developer could could create a stable work environment, by creating all the tools needed. And overall in a work environment the MacOS was quite stable and reliable. The home user with a mixed bag of shareware and apps from this place and that place coupled perhaps with a lack of clear purpose had much more trouble with stability.

68040 512 MB Posts: 950 68k - thy kingdom come, thy will be done !	Reply #20 on: May 20, 2025, 11:26 Strangely enough these days when either Microsoft Windows or Google's Android (+Apple OS?) stop supporting features/make program versions unusable between upgrades or OS version changes, few if any try to make a stink about it. Either we've come to accept the power of the beast or single user voices just don't have the reach anymore that they used to.

cballero 1024 MB Posts: 1176 System 7, today and forever	Reply #21 on: May 20, 2025, 12:19 68040, don’t even get me started when a Chrome got rid of simplified printing I remember Macinroshing back then was a very expensive hobby, but as far as stability under System 6, it was definitely there. The bells and whistles of System 7 came at a price if you decided to have fun with shareware CDEVs and INITs, plus run a bunch of programs at once. So when I was serious about any project, I’d always have an extension set just for that, whether that was for gaming or real work, usually it was as close to running it with extensions off. Some of my additions to that were productivity hacks like an automatic word replacer , a character inserted and an app launcher, plus a slew of Apple Menu Items, like an updated notepad, and of course the calculator
Last Edit: May 20, 2025, 12:21 by cballero
68040 512 MB Posts: 950 68k - thy kingdom come, thy will be done !	Reply #22 on: May 20, 2025, 12:36 Bill Gates wanted to turn work with the computer into a household item experience, like using a refrigerator. And I think he managed to do exactly that: Who'd take you serious if you complained about the ice cubes not being perfectly square in your fridge? The computer went from a marvel of science, needed to accomplish previously unthinkable tasks, to an access tool for Facebook and TikTok timelines. Seriously, who uses his/her computer for truly creative work these days, unless they get paid to do so? Back then it was a matter of personal pride to create something new, astonishing with that expensive eye catcher on your desk.

Bolkonskij Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023	Reply #23 on: May 20, 2025, 15:10 Quote from: 68040 Either we've come to accept the power of the beast or single user voices just don't have the reach anymore that they used to. Or both! Indeed! The apathy with which everything is accepted as pure fate is baffling … Quote from: cballero I remember Macinroshing back then was a very expensive hobby, but as far as stability under System 6, it was definitely there. The bells and whistles of System 7 came at a price if you decided to have fun with shareware CDEVs and INITs, plus run a bunch of programs at once. Very true as well. My IIci runs very stable on both System 6 and 7.1 and the only thing that takes it down are buggy inits / cdevs / software. I have not had any "random" crashes in like months. That is after a recap of the IIci's power supply though! I think a lot of people don’t realize that flaky caps on old hardware can lead to more frequent encounters with Macsbug as the current in the machine isn’t regulated enough. Perhaps that is where at least some of the bad rap about the supposed instability of earlier Mac OS versions comes from. Quote from: 68040 Seriously, who uses his/her computer for truly creative work these days, unless they get paid to do so? Back then it was a matter of personal pride to create something new, astonishing with that expensive eye catcher on your desk. I’ve made this point before, creating something just for the sake of creating it being a lost art. Which I really am sad about. Maybe we should open a thread and do exactly that - create something on System 7 just for the sake of doing it. Like pixeling an image, creating something in ASCII, writing a poem, creating a Gopherhole or whatever … just for the sake of expressing our creativity! And maybe learning a thing or two while doing it, or having an interesting thought :-)

wove 1024 MB Posts: 1363	Reply #24 on: May 20, 2025, 16:21 Quote from: “Bolkonskij” I’ve made this point before, creating something just for the sake of creating it being a lost art. I am not sure that is totally fair. People use tools for many different purposes, some mundane and prosaic, and others expressive and creative. And it is also hard to know how you define creative. I build a chair, is that creative, or am I just building something tens of thousands of others have already built and IKEA has a hundred types of perfectly functional chairs. I am not sure that because a person owns a tool and does not use the tool creatively it is safe to assume they are not creative. A knife can simply cut open a box, or it can carve a figurine. A figurine carver might do both with a knife, while a poet might just use it cut open a box. I also think we are seeing people making better tech tool choices related to their needs. Many have given up the desktop machine and moved to a phone, tablet, or smart TV to meet their rather prosaic needs, with no creative work flow in mind. Also of course with Classic Mac stuff a great deal is just in the collecting of the hardware. My wife collects old dolls, not because she likes playing with dolls, she just likes having old dolls. Many of the old dolls she owns would break if they were “played” with. Vintage Macs are not that old, many still do work fine, but for many just having them is as important as using them.

lauland 512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!	Reply #25 on: May 20, 2025, 16:22 Bolkonskij, I love the idea of doing something creative just for the sake of the joy of being able to, as any human can. You don't need a specific "talent", or whatever. Kids are so pure in that way, they have such joy in MAKING, and haven't decided they "aren't good enough" yet. (Whether they get told that or not...with so many people it's them telling themselves what they "can't do"). I know a lot of us are musicians, so a song or two...or...maybe even just some cool shared sound effects? Or just ideas. Here's one: Use just the lowest piano keys, for the bass line in an an otherwise typical pop/rock/jazz/etc song. The bass line would purposely mimic what would otherwise be played on a bass. The piano wouldn't play anything else, and would be minimal, but slammed, just for the timbre and sound of those lowly low keys. I'm a coder, but haven't been blessed with much visual creativity, so one thing that could happen is have one of us design a little character, or even a sprite sheet, and I could write something to display and move it. Draw enough "stuff", some backgrounds, a few trees and rocks, read the keyboard, and eventually could even have the skeleton of game. And, if you're the kind that likes to know how the sausage is made, I can tell you how I do it...or even better, but I'm realistic, not do all the coding myself! But it MUST be a collaborative effort of some kind.
Last Edit: May 20, 2025, 16:24 by lauland
cballero 1024 MB Posts: 1176 System 7, today and forever	Reply #26 on: May 20, 2025, 17:50 That's one of my behind-the-scenes goals, to get kids computing the old fashioned way again, the Beige G3 was the beginning, opting for slightly more powered units, even though a $500 M4 Mac does make for a hard-to-pass option, especially with all of it's virtualization/emulation capabilities combined with all of that power under the hood at an attractive enough price Even my foray into running the Mac OS within Chromebooks wasn't arbitrary. Just a lot of testing, lol. But the real secret sauce will be in the networking between places securely; that will be when some real fun and collaborative things can truly be explored and families can discover just how much fun old-school computing really used to be.. and still can be even now, no fancy new SM/YT platforms needed! I'm hopeful, anyway, and I thank everyone who's been plugging away at all the software updates, bringing out new software, and hosting Classic-Mac compatible media, etc.. all of this matters more than we can grasp right now, oddly enough. So let's keep on keepin' on!

68040 512 MB Posts: 950 68k - thy kingdom come, thy will be done !	Reply #27 on: May 20, 2025, 18:48 Quote from: Bolkonskij I’ve made this point before, creating something just for the sake of creating it being a lost art. If you don't use it you lose it. Once I've made my move to where the future is happening today (you know what I'm talking about) I plan to spend a lot more time celebrating the glorious past. And yes, I yearn to be creative - again. After countless years of being enslaved by the algorithm, my mind feels like it wants to explode with ideas nobody dared to think of before. We have come to accept so many limitations, rules and restrictions being imposed on us, that we are more often than not busy justifying what we do, rather than just be doing it.

snes1423 256 MB Posts: 458 A Man born of Mechina	Reply #28 on: May 21, 2025, 17:12 now THIS is a ideal setup http://revontulet.org/2025/05/21/68dbaaedbb134f8897dcd259ea00110d.png

wove 1024 MB Posts: 1363	Reply #29 on: May 21, 2025, 21:02 ( bet that is a nice setup. I have Lion installed on a 2010 17" MBP and it is a hoot. The "skumorphiness" is delicious visual candy. I think it is the oldest version of OSX that connects to iCloud and still syncs calendar and contacts and sends and receives email. Lion is also the oldest version that is supported by the PaleMoon browser, a FireFox esr build that is pretty compatible with newer sites. In my case I use it ro run all my much used software from my Leopard install on a PowerMac G5. InterWeb is a solid functional browser tracing its heritage back to TenFourFox.

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