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| Author | PowerMac G4 "Mystic" (aka gigabit) won't boot MacOS 9...ideas? (Read 27490 times) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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lauland
512 MB  Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer! 
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on: June 23, 2024, 01:59
Hey guys, I have the a above mentioned machine, picked up used from Goodwill many years ago. The previous owner had a PC Radeon card (of some sort) that they'd flashed with a Mac Rom, tons of ram, and it has a dual 1.8ghz G4 Sonnet upgrade. Very nice machine, and runs MacOS X 10.4 like a dream...but... It'd be even more useful to me if it would boot MacOS 9...which it would've shipped with, but refuses! It'd be the ideal machine for trying a Classilla build...eh? My assumption has always been it must have non-stock firmware and/or something else, for the sake of the dual g4 upgrade. I've been EXTREMELY hesitant for that reason to try reflashing or trying one of the "MacOS 9 for machines that don't support it officially" solutions (such as those for iBook G4 or MacMinis), although I'm thinking they'd be a good bet... Like I said, I've been hesitant to muck with it too much, and I haven't needed it for any specific project...until now, possibly with Classilla. (I am planning on using it to try build TenFourFox, since it is much faster than my G4 laptops or Minis). Because I got it used, I don't have the stock cpu that it came with, in case it's just the cpus...somehow...which I doubt. So, anyone have any suggestions of how to safely possibly get around this without accidentally bricking the thing? |
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wove
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1024 MB Posts: 1363
Reply #1 on: June 23, 2024, 02:29
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That is my OS 9 machine, bought it to send my youngest off to college and got it back after a decade. I think the machine came stock with an Nvidia card. It will have lots of problems booting from different video cards. The Nvidia and ATI drivers really really conflict with each other. There is a MB reset button. My best recollection is it about a third of the way down from the hinge, on the right side. Pressing the button for about 10 seconds should clear out any firmware settings that have changed. If video card has been swapped and the drivers are mixed up, the button press will problem not help boot the installed system, however it will generally allow for booting from the original 9.0.4 install media. If you can view the drive on a different system, you can go through the various system folders to clear out any of the video card driver software for cards not in the machine. Overall the Gigabit Ethernet machine is a real reliable winner of a machine. Mine has a Firewire/USB card, a SCSI card, and an ATI video capture card installed. It also has a ZIP drive and a "Super Drive". I have used the machine to convert our old VHS collection to digital.
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #2 on: June 23, 2024, 05:37
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Hmm...I'm not even getting a "happy mac" when I try a cd I know is good (used to boot 7600 and g3 and g4 pb's). So it's not JUST the video card, but you have a really good point...when I actually get it to boot MacOS 9, I will try with an actual Apple shipped Rage 128 or Radeon 7000! I'm very hesitant to just wipe the firmware, especially since I have no idea what is in there, and couldn't easily replace it if it bricks the thing (at least while it has the dual g4's in it)...so dumping the contents somehow first sounds very prudent...but even then, if I do reflash it with stock g4 firmware, it might not start again, at all! I'm not sure if that button touches the actual firmware, as much as clearing the non-volatile ram of any patches...but for all I know, the firmware IS stock and there are just patches...I know that's what the g3 and g4 boards for the 7600 do...but then again, the 7600 doesn't have flashable firmware as far as I know, so new firmware isn't really possible, and patches are it.
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Jatoba
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256 MB Posts: 270 System 9 Newcomer!
Reply #3 on: June 23, 2024, 08:59
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That Sonnet upgrade... If I'm not mistaken, Sonnet's user manual mentions something about it requiring a few files of their own in your Mac OS install or Mac OS media, be it CD or otherwise. We might need to do some digging via Wayback Machine from archive.org. I remember this sort of stuff being discussed on MacRumors PPC subforum, but for the MDD ugrade of Sonnet (whose CPU sockets were dubbed "MDX" by Sonnet, same CPU socket as Xserve G4). I think there was also something related to the "Multiprocessing" folder, which is found inside "Extensions" from the System Folder. Did we have to remove the folder from there? Or put one of Sonnet's files there... @Knezzen As a Sonnet MDX owner, are you able to chime in on that to confirm if I remember this right? EDIT: @lauland Check this "Mac OS 9 Lives!" thread? I think it might be just what you need. EDIT 2: @Knezzen support via Hotline! I'll repass his points: Update your Mac OS 9 install (9.2.2 specifically?) with the appropriate updaters from this Garden page If your CPU upgrade is one of those dual-processor Sonnet Encore/ST (also works for Sonnet Encore/MDX for MDDs), then you need "updatedCPU.sit_.hqx". Quoting the page: "Replace your old Apple CPU Plugin extension with the extension in this file", which is inside the Multiprocessing folder I mentioned earlier. Hopefully you will be able to use this without having to natively boot into Mac OS 9 first... Else getting one of the official Apple daughtercards might be required...
Last Edit: June 23, 2024, 11:57 by Jatoba
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #4 on: June 23, 2024, 21:08
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Naw, it's even weirder than that...it won't even TRY to start from MacOS 9...it acts like a machine that never supported it...so not even a happy mac and then bomb. It acts like the MacOS 9 CD is unbootable, even though I know it is good! It IS possible it's a optical drive thing, in that maybe just maybe it "doesn't like" the MacOS 9 disk...but it is an actual stock Apple one! I was able to install MacOS X 10.4 from DVD on it, so it is less likely, but I know some drives seem to have minds of their own. I'll try boot ing MacOS 9 off firewire...don't remember if I tried that before... ---- On another note, going through my "closet of wonders" I found a sawtooth motherboard (with stock cpu) of unknown provenance. I picked it up at Goodwill a decade or so ago, and never even tested it. The ethernet port is marked "10/100" so it isn't the same model, but I might be able to swap the cpu and/or the entire motherboard into the Mystic's case...assuming the board is good... ---- I need to hang out on Hotline more often! Update: It is acting even more weird booting into MacOS X but classic getting stuck and then even Terminal beachballing... Going to wipe the drive and image with known good 10.4 (and 9) and will let you guys know what happens...
Last Edit: June 23, 2024, 22:00 by lauland
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #5 on: June 24, 2024, 16:44
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Imaged from backup of my TiBook (so known good System Folder), still only get grey screen, but boots 10.4 fine. It isn't the video card...I swapped that out for an Apple supplied Radeon that I used in my b&w g3 to boot MacOS 8.6. (Tried a rage 128 and even an old ixrez also). I'd really hoped that was it, maybe the hack flash they used didn't have a MacOS 9 driver, but no... It isn't the 2g of ram...removed all but one stick and still the same. It isn't the hard or optical drives...it acts the same via firewire. Holding down the button on the motherboard had no effect, nor did leaving the battery out (and unplugged) for a while. I had SAID it was a Sonnet cpu upgrade but that does not seem to be the case...I know most of theirs have purple heatsinks, but a dual g4 they made had two fans. It doesn't match pictures of any Sonnet from a google search. Whatever this upgrade is, the heatsink is gold and it has a single (loud) fan. It isn't a MAXpower either...the heatsink and fan are a lot larger. It looks almost EXACTLY like the one at this page...but no, I don't think I ended up with that guy's machine...he even mentions it is 1.6ghz, the video card I have is flashed, but it is black: https://willceau.com/news/2012/02/01/dual-g4-1-25-ghz-power-mac/ So I might have some weird 3rd party upgrade, maybe a cheap one only designed to work in MacOS X? There are no identifying markings visible without disassembly, which I guess is the next step...maybe trying the stock cpu from the "mystery sawtooth" board I have. In System Profiler, it lists the cpu as "PowerPC 60? (1.1)", which is similar to what I've seen with an (actual) sonnet g4 in my 7600. ---- Well, if I have to go with the single cpu from the sawtooth (even if it's only 400 or so mhz), it won't be TOO bad...I doubt building Classilla on MacOS 9 makes much use of the 2nd cpu. Not a lot did in MacOS 9 unless it was specifically written to use it...and I doubt that includes MacPerl, ToolServer, and CodeWarrior!
Last Edit: June 24, 2024, 17:02 by lauland
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Jatoba
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256 MB Posts: 270 System 9 Newcomer!
Reply #6 on: June 24, 2024, 17:29
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Since 2021, there's been a number of people on MacRumors PPC subforum who got custom CPU upgrades done to install 7448 processors on the MDD and other PowerMacs. Ultimately, you could boot into OS 9 if you ran the patcher/updater from one of the many vendors who sold 7448 upgrades, even if the daughtercard you have is something you "made" yourself by soldering in 7448 (or 7447) processors, and is not officially from any vendor. It would be good to confirm if you got 7447 or 7448 processors. The latter has 1MB L2 cache, whereas the former has "only" 512KB. Sonnet never sold 7448 upgrades, so their updater may or may not work for 7448 CPUs. Instead, people used I think either Giga Designs or MaxPower updaters/patchers to get their 7448s going on OS 9. If there's an L3 cache, it could also be a 7457 upgrade. Like the 7447, it also has 512KB L2 cache. All 744x processors are pin-compatible with one another, and same is true for 745x processors among themselves, but with an interposer board remapping a few pins, daughtercards designed for a 745x could be used with a 744x instead, and vice-versa. What does Mac OS X report the CPU as? And if it won't say, then does it detect L3 cache? And how much L2 cache? I wish I could easily find the exact MacRumors PPC subforum thread with this info, but it's buried somewhere in their forums. I think we have the Giga Designs / MAXpowr / PowerLogix / Newer technology updaters in the Garden, but we ought to check. The MacRumors PPC discussion may have been this one (HTTPS link), or some other. A keyword to look for is "7448". Maybe the lack of such a thing could cause OS 9 to misbehave that way, both natively and in Classic? TL;DR Nameless CPU upgrades are fine! If it boots OS X, it can also boot OS 9. Unless if the issue is something else unrelated to it, but in that case OS X probably wouldn't have booted.
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wove
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1024 MB Posts: 1363
Reply #7 on: June 24, 2024, 17:59
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Are you sure you have a Gigabit Ethernet machine? A Sawtooth processor will not go in a Gigabit Ethernet machine. The Sawtooth processor was socketed. I put a G4 sawtooth processor into the G3 Socket on my beige G3. My Gigabit ethernet is a dual G4/500. It is on a rather large daughter card with an also pretty large aluminum heat sink (no fan). I should say I am not familiar with the term "Mystic" related to Apple computers.
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #8 on: June 25, 2024, 06:04
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Mystery (partially) solved! It is the cpu board. I swapped it with the one from the "mystery sawtooth" and it booted straight away into MacOS 9. Sadly, it is only a single 400mhz g4 7400, but, hey...better than nothing by far! (Gah, but 1/4th speed I could have!) The upgrade is from PowerLogix, and says it is a "PowerForce series 32" (Although the number is a little hard to read due to silkscreening getting overridden by passthroughs on the board). 1.6ghz x 2 g4 7447's (I think). My first thought was, hey, if the socket is right, why don't I swap out just the motherboard, ie put the PowerLogix on the Sawtooth? No dice, my PowerMac's power supply has two more pins than will fix the Sawtooth's socket. I...COULD...leave those extra pins hanging off and...see what happens...but will do some careful research first!!! Also, now some research on that board and why MacOS 9 does NOT like it. ---- For the record, I should've posted this sooner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Mac_G4 My PowerMac is a "Mid 2000 Gigabit", aka Mystic. The mystery board is from a "Late 1999 AGP", aka Sawtooth.
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Jatoba
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256 MB Posts: 270 System 9 Newcomer!
Reply #9 on: June 25, 2024, 07:48
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Nice! Now you can install CPU upgrade software! Maybe you could even try the Sonnet updater. AFAIK, the main point of the updater is to get the CPU recognized. There should be no distinction between the various upgrade vendors like Sonnet etc., it's just literally the actual CPU that is to be dealt with, meaning that if a vendor released a patch for the CPU, it can work with any vendor's upgrade if it's the same CPU. This is indeed most likely a 7447 upgrade. We would know for sure if we could confirm the L2 cache size, and if there's an L3 cache. The 7448 upgrades are ultra rare, and PowerLogix' 7448 upgrades had a different name, so this is indeed most likely a 7447 (or, less likely but not impossibly, a 7457 upgrade, but that clock speed is higher than out-to-the-box 7457 upgrades AFAIK). Perhaps try running the Sonnet updater? It should work. Or the MaxPowr one I shared on Hotline yesterday: http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/accelerator-card-drivers
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB  Posts: 2023
Reply #10 on: June 25, 2024, 10:35
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I don't know if you plan on running OSX on the machine as well. If so, your upgrade card will likely need separate installers for OS 9 and OS X, so you need to install both before swapping the CPU out. Run it once on OS9, and once on OSX. At least that's how it had to be done with my Sonnet card that I got from knezzen and I learnt it the hard way ... But hey, I find OS 9 runs fairly nice even on a 400 Mhz G4. In fact, I find it pretty usable even on a 300+ Mhz G3 CPU, so play around with it. You may not even need the extra "oomph" :-)
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wove
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1024 MB Posts: 1363
Reply #11 on: June 25, 2024, 13:30
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I guess I messed up on my code names. The first G4 PowerMac was essentially a Blue and White G3 bumped to a G4. It still had PCI graphics. That is the model that I thought was the one referred to as the "Sawtooth". The second gen G4 switched to AGP graphics and I just always referred to it as "AGP Graphics". It was followed by the "Gigabit Ethernet". Then came the Digital Audio, followed by the QuickSilver. If I recall correctly the first G4 through the Gigabit all came is very similar cases. Jag was an early big name in System 6 and System 7. He ran a great early web site packed full of solid information. Well anyway PowerLogics was his family's business. It is good to hear you got it up and running with OS 9.
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Jatoba
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256 MB Posts: 270 System 9 Newcomer!
Reply #12 on: June 25, 2024, 14:35
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Quote from: Bolkonskij But hey, I find OS 9 runs fairly nice even on a 400 Mhz G4. In fact, I find it pretty usable even on a 300+ Mhz G3 CPU, so play around with it. You may not even need the extra "oomph" :-) The main reason is that @lauland is seeking a powerhouse PowerMac to work on Classilla, and this would fit the bill very nicely. It is one of those things that really can use all the power it can get.
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #13 on: June 25, 2024, 14:44
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The higher the compiling time, the higher the expectations  Seriously though, yeah, for compiling that beast you want speeeeeed ....
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #14 on: July 05, 2024, 05:53
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Well, I've downloaded all the PowerLogix drivers and software I was able to find, and still no luck. That includes "CPU Director" and "Cache Profiler", both which include extensions, which enable caches, and allow you a lot of tweaking...obviously required for accelerators on old pre-G3/G4 hardware where the rom and/or system doesn't enable the caches, such as the G3 card I have in my 7600. There's a "G4 enabler" but it is only for B&W G3's...and an "Alteivec enabler", but it and all the other extensions loads AFTER the system starts... ---- So either I'm missing something obvious, or there's still some driver out there I haven't found yet. All I get is a grey screen when I try to boot into MacOS 9, not even a "happy mac". This makes me think it needs something that'd patch the "Mac OS Rom" file, or the motherboard firmware (boot rom)...nothing like that seems to be included in any of the downloads I've located. Using software meant for another brand cpu board, as has been suggested, might be possible, but almost all of them take the same form: Extensions that load AFTER startup. From what I can tell, the vast majority of cpu cards (powerpc for cpu slots or zif sockets) don't REQUIRE drivers per se...other than to enable caches. Not that you'd want to run without them, but you can, in general, expect just about anything to actually START without any special drivers... ---- Speaking of B&W G3's, I've got one, and I think the card MIGHT physically fit...so that'd be similar to the G4 "Yikes" model, if I were willing to throw caution to the wind and try it...if it'd actually work. If the reason I'm unable to boot MacOS 9 on the G4 is due to it having some odd firmware loaded, it's possible the B&W might actually boot. But...the card seems to be labeled "133" (hard to read with components in the way), implying it is designed for motherboards that run at that speed...the B&W is only 100 mhz. So like I said in the mozilla/classilla post, I feel I've wasted enough time tinkering with hardware, and need to use what I have working, even if the build will end up quite a bit slower than the original author's. Thus I'm going to call the PowerLogix card a lost cause, for now, while I need MacOS 9 for classilla...
Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 06:47 by lauland
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