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| Author | Katheryn's Power Macintosh 6400/G3-300 (Read 75192 times) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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alectrona6400
16 MB  Posts: 28 Curious nerd woman with crazy ideas! 
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on: May 05, 2024, 23:25
Hello S7T! Coming from the very computer mentioned in this thread's title is this writeup about my experiences with this particular machine. The 6400/6500 systems have always kind of intrigued me solely for their form factor and ease of accessibility with the motherboard being on a tray like the (horrible) 6200/6300 systems that preceded it. I have some extended family who has to downsize, and while they were cleaning they found the box, manual, and software CD for a Performa 6400/180! Unfortunately, the good stuff was sold off 20 years ago (which already makes me wonder why they kept those particular things...) but thankfully I found a working 6400 on eBay for $100. Yes, I paid a bit too much compared to how much one could have got ahold of a system like this several years back, but I actually had a good reason to buy it. I wanted a nice bridge machine that would work with vintage mac floppies and SCSI disks (the upper bay actually has an extra 50-pin SCSI port reserved for the opt. zip drive, which is great for backing old drives up) but also something that could easily run any old macintosh software. I like to mess around with technology much like everyone here, and a system like this is a godsend for getting even older macs to work because you're even able to read images that windows computers simply can't! As for the hardware, this was a bone-stock 6400/180 though it had 24MB of RAM installed and... that was it. I don't know what the original RAM was in this machine, but it was probably that. Original hard drive, original 8X CD-ROM (which doesn't really work, even with discs burnt at the slowest speed and with a smidge of a laser adjustment), original floppy drive (Sony MPF52A, which didn't read disks regardless of any head cleaning and lubrication, so I replaced it with a panasonic drive), original 1.6GB hard drive (which I replaced with a 40GB 7200rpm drive from an iMac G4 I upgraded), you get the point. Thankfully I already had a few upgrades on hand aside from the storage stuff. The CD-ROM was upgraded with a CR-508-B 24x CD-ROM, though unfortunately that also seems to be on its last legs; I will later invest in a Toshiba SD-M1401, which is overkill... but it should read any CD I throw at it. The L2 slot was empty (how surprising... ha ha.) and to my luck, I have a Sonnet Crescendo G3/L2 card on hand which I threw in without hesitation. I got it from a now-dead 6360 (wasn't a huge fan of the one PCI slot anyways). The RAM in here is 104MB, which is the onboard 8MB plus 64MB and 32MB DIMMs. I do have a second 64MB DIMM but unfortunately it does not work; I'll consider buying a new set of RAM anyway. Another part I pulled from the 6360 was an A/V card, which allows you to.. you know, use the mac as an A/V video input.. that's actually super cool. As for PCI cards I threw in a Radeon 7000 64MB PCI card that I got from eBay for $30 with a flashed BIOS (183/166 is UNSTABLE, use 166/166 if using a custom version of the mac ROM). The second slot got a Farallon PN993 10/100 ethernet card that I've had since I was in 8th grade from my old tech class; I had a nerdy friend who brought in and gave me old tech every now and then... just a bunch of worthless PC stuff in retrospect. The power supply is technically original. I did have to replace some of its capacitors because they have started leaking, and I should be able to get a complete cap list for the 6400 since I also recapped the motherboard (none except a couple caps have leaked, but i knew soon they would). The PRAM battery was replaced with a CR2032 coin cell, which is technically 1.5V under the original battery, but as long as it doesn't drop below 3V according to the service manuals for some macs that used the 840 battery, it should be okay. The machine itself isn't in the best physical condition, I did have to replace a couple sleds because they shattered into a million pieces. Could've been the fact this was shipped from Arizona, but also the machine in the listing photos already looked like it took some hits. But hey... at least it's not the Performa 6200 and 5200... as if those weren't already terrible enough! I also just shoved in a 120mm fan above the power supply and under the TV tuner bracket, which also goes to the area above the motherboard. Just giving it a bit of extra cooling, despite the fact that the case wasn't built for that (and I'd feel bad about doing any modifications to it!!) As for the software... you can already tell this runs System 7. Specifically Mac OS 7.6.1. Now, I do want to get something out of the way for anyone running 7.6.1 on a 6400 from the IDE bus. Disable virtual memory and you'll get the speed you deserve. Apparently there's a bug in 7.6.1 related to virtual memory that slows down the 6400 to a crawl, mainly affecting the IDE bus itself. Information about this issue is unfortunately obscure, but simply disabling virtual memory fixes the issue. I have also heard RAM doubler causes this issue. The 6400 Zone went offline not too long ago (I plan on preserving it with a github pages mirror someday, along with some up to date info if that's not a problem), and mentions of this issue are not particularly easy to find to a point where its a subject that comes up often. As for my experiences with this computer, I have had to fix a few hardware related issues, but now I can write this with confidence and the computer hasn't locked up at all! I did have a bad RAM stick (a second 64MB DIMM), but also my particular Radeon 7000 PCI card (which is a strange HP OEM one based on Diamond's design, built in 2005) can only handle up to 166/166 clock. Still plenty and perfect, compared to the onboard video I originally put up with. Using a Dell 17" LCD from 2004 with it and it looks great. If you have any questions feel free to ask! -Kat |
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #1 on: May 06, 2024, 01:19
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Very cool! I'm very curious to your experience with the flashed radeon...I've got a bunch of old video cards no longer useful for anything modern and have been meaning to look into flashing, as they'd be really nice in older Macs. I'd heard Apple had gone with a cheap implementation for the IDE on a lot of the first models that had it...especially maybe not implementing DMA correctly? I'm betting whatever affects the 6400 goes the same for the 6360...I run 8.1 on mine so I can use HFS+ for a big partition, wonder if they fixed the bug in 8.1? I swap out the motherboard with a 630 one so I can switch between ppc and m68k as needed. I know what you mean about shattering plastic...and wonder if some of the older machines I've got that are so fragile were stored in garages, etc for years just baking and cooling and baking again with the seasons... I've had sleds just disintegrate and have to break them farther just to get all the pieces out. Ram is weird and there's lot of factors like if the machine wants/needs matched pairs and even the number of chips per dimm/simm can matter, or which slot which size goes in. I don't know anything about the 6400, my similar 6360 I haven't touched the ram in ages and don't remember what's in it... And optical drives...geez...all my older machines seem to be going out of alignment or have gotten REALLY picky or don't like disks burned by modern burners (or likely all three). A couple of my laptops I'm so hesitant to put a disk in them because more likely than not they'll TRY and read it and get stuck and I have to get a paperclip out!
Last Edit: May 06, 2024, 01:22 by lauland
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wove
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1024 MB Posts: 1363
Reply #2 on: May 06, 2024, 04:32
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Actually the plastic on that form factor was always horrible. I do recall fixing/upgrading those machines even when just a couple years old and it was all but impossible to do anything without breaking some bit of plastic. I think that was true for most of the plastics in mid 90s machines. CD drives overall are not that long lasting. They seem to last a good while, but that is more because they are not used that much. I remember reading somewhere that CD burners are designed to burn about 20 disks before failing. (Consumer electric drills are designed to run a half hour. You can drill a lot of holes in a half hour, but that still seems disappointing.) Overall that sounds like a nicely tricked out piece of hardware. Nice work on the recapping that is some fiddly work.
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alectrona6400
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16 MB Posts: 28 Curious nerd woman with crazy ideas!
Reply #3 on: May 07, 2024, 22:00
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Yeah... the IDE implementation on these machines is strange. Also now I have an issue with type 3 errors whenever I open iCab, and sometimes certain programs make the system lock up. Would this be a RAM issue? I am suspecting that for sure honestly... part of me wants to upgrade to 8.6 but I have more powerful machines that can run that, and it would kinda defeat the purpose of me having an older mac... especially considering that has the mutli-mode floppy drive.
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #4 on: May 08, 2024, 05:17
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Personally I run mostly 8.1 on my 6360...and no higher...that way I can swap the motherboard out with a 630 one and boot off the same System Folder...and use hfs+ partitions. I know we're talking about stability issues in the other "Hiiii!!" topic, so I won't mention that here.
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1176 System 7, today and forever
Reply #5 on: May 08, 2024, 19:07
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While I know there's a HFS+ version of System 7.6.1, I don't know if that one may be worth trying out on the PM 6400 models? And that's an excellent point, Lauland: this PowerMac could also have a dual boot with Mac OS 8.1, which should be pretty solid on such a fast Mac, quite similar to the first generation G3s, so I definitely would encourage the idea as well, unless there's a specific reason to keep this Mac solely a System 7 Mac that is.
Last Edit: May 08, 2024, 19:09 by cballero
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #6 on: May 10, 2024, 04:57
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Yeah, I actually have multiple System Folders on the drive, and "bless" or "unbless" as needed. (Move Finder and/or System file so they are not together in same folder).
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1176 System 7, today and forever
Reply #7 on: May 10, 2024, 05:37
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I like using a utility called System Picker to make the "blessing" easier  The trick is performing a clean install to not overwrite the current OS and having both System Folders (renamed of course) on the same drive/volume in order for System Picker to work and it has been tried with up to Mac OS 8.1! 
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alectrona6400
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16 MB Posts: 28 Curious nerd woman with crazy ideas!
Reply #8 on: May 22, 2024, 23:42
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Sooo... I was having stability issues because of the network card I installed, the Farallon PN993. I thought it was related to System 7.6.1 and I ended up installing OS 8.1 because of that thought, but that wasn't the case... I ended up installing a proper RTL8139 card and using Realtek's drivers instead of the Farallon drivers, and now I have a stable system with a working internet connection! I'm going to reinstall 7.6.1 without the useless stuff I don't need so I should have a better experience. Honestly the issue with the PN993 could just be the card itself, it's been with me for years and it's probably gone through enough to a point where it needs to be recycled; I found it in a junk bin years ago. I could install an 8169 but I don't think I'll ever even top 10/100 capabilities with this computer anyway, and I have better computers to install that card into.
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alectrona6400
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16 MB Posts: 28 Curious nerd woman with crazy ideas!
Reply #9 on: May 23, 2024, 01:32
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Back on 7.6.1 now with the RTL8139 card and its smooth sailing!!!! I also noticed one of my 64MB DIMMs still works, but the other one still doesn't. I have 104MB in here and for now it's perfect. I should definitely try the Radeon 9250 and perhaps even upgrading the L2 cache on my Sonnet card to 1MB so as to match the PowerMac G3's performance a little better. I'm quite good at soldering and I've tried this before until realizing the chips I installed were 32-bit and not 36-bit like the G3 requires. Perhaps someday I'll also see if someone can swap in a G4 chip on the card, and then we'll be flying. AFAIK the 6400 only addresses up to a 400MHz CPU which would still be a nice clock speed. It runs much better with known good LAN drivers and a working LAN card!!
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wove
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1024 MB Posts: 1363
Reply #10 on: May 23, 2024, 04:16
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Nice work on getting the PM6400 purring like a kitten, with networking and all. System 7.6 is a great system for the machine and overall I bet it is a great beast of a machine. My guess is that you would notice increased performance more by getting all the RAM working than by upping to a G4 processor. I swapped a G4 for a G3 on the PowerMac AIO (Molar Mac) and while it was cool to do, overall it did not make any great leaps in the machines performance. It is now time to sit back and enjoy the fruits of your labors
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alectrona6400
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16 MB Posts: 28 Curious nerd woman with crazy ideas!
Reply #11 on: May 23, 2024, 06:21
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Yeah honestly for 7.6.1 I decided the G3 was enough. Besides you don't get AltiVec support unless you're running 8.6 or above so its not worth it anyway. I also found out you can overclock the system bus to 50MHz on the 6400 which should make it speedier all around; you just need a fan for the 603's heatsink and a 50mhz crystal replacing the 40mhz one. I did find 36-bit cache chips on a scrap board that total to 1MB so that should work on my sonnet card but thats a job I'm not rushing to do for obvious reasons. Solely just going from 512KB of cache to 1MB in case anyone is curious, which should bring a bit of a speed boost to the machine.
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Jatoba
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256 MB Posts: 270 System 9 Newcomer!
Reply #12 on: May 23, 2024, 08:52
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@alectrona6400 According to the Mac OS 8.6 ~ 9.2.2 nanokernel author, full AltiVec support only came with Mac OS 9.0.0 and later. The special 8.6 version for the Sawtooth seems to have only partial support. And I guess that all the other versions of 8.6 have no support at all. I have no idea what software uses AltiVec at all, though, on Mac OS 9.2.2 and earlier.
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wove
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1024 MB Posts: 1363
Reply #13 on: May 23, 2024, 13:12
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AltiVec was Motorola’s last gasp to stay relevant in the changing processor world. Apple with OS X looming wanted to take full control of development environment and Motorola wanted royalties for their IP adding to PowerPC. Apple never never did include AltiVec support in X-Code. PowerPC processor design trajectory was always to be multi core multi processor and Motorola’s AltiVec was just superfluous to PowerPC’s design objectives. While Motorola fabricated most PowerPC chips for Apple the last G5 PowerMacs sourced the processor from IBM and they did not include the AltiVec vector processing engine. My Gigabit Ethernet PowerMac has dual G4 processors both of which have the AltiVec engine and I am not aware of any software that actually makes use of them. It will run 9.0.4, but the Classic Mac OS really does not even make very good use of the dual processors, let alone AltiVec. Overall I do not think AltiVec saw much use by any Apple Software either for Classic Mac OS or for OS X and the Classic Mac OS never did a very good job of needing, using or supporting multiple processors. To some degree I think the AntiVec add-on its similar to the odd co-processor chip Apple had in the Quadra 840AV which while capable of more was never used for any purpose beyond supporting the GeoPort and that goofy pseudo GeoPort modem. Both Motorola and AT&T wanted you to buy the processor, pay for the development kit and pay royalties for software built using it. And neither of them gained any traction in their efforts.
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alectrona6400
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16 MB Posts: 28 Curious nerd woman with crazy ideas!
Reply #14 on: May 23, 2024, 23:46
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Welp, I jumped the gun on swapping L2 cache chips over and the extra 512KB of cache makes a difference. I also ended up swapping the board over to one from a PSU-dead 6360 I have, because for some reason that board is more stable than the 6400's stock board. I don't care about losing the extra 20mhz on the 603ev for obvious reasons. I do wish my card had a newer G3 chip on it instead of the older Aluminum interconnect version but oh well... this runs perfectly fine and is close to performance to a Power Macintosh G3/300. A card like the Crescendo L2 is not something I wanna mess with too much considering its rarity. The original chips were Galvantech GVT7164D36T-3, the new ones are Samsung K7A403600M-QC22 chips. Both are 36-bit chips but the GVT is 64Kx36 (512KB with two chips), and the Samsung is 128Kx36 (1MB/1024KB with two chips). Metronome now detects the full 1MB of cache and I haven't had any stability issues with the setup, doing everything that made the other one crash (especially trying to get online, though that was the farallon card's fault!) Yes, you can swap L2 cache chips over... but it isn't for the faint of heart! The Crescendo L2 boards all have the necessary address buses connected to run the 128Kx36 chips even if the original card is a 512KB variant. Someday I may get into messing with BGA soldering but I'll have to do tons of practice, and I'll need the right tools for it. As for this card I'm leaving it alone until it eventually fails, which these don't seem to anyway.
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