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| Author | GreyScale on the SE/30 (Read 24502 times) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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wove
1024 MB  Posts: 1363 
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on: November 11, 2022, 14:47
There is confusion I think over greyscale on the SE/30. Micron made a PDS video card that output color to use an external color monitor with the SE/30. The greyscale was produced via a card that attached to the yoke of the tube to produce grey scale. Generally Micron sold these as a set, but they could also be purchased separately. Plans for building the greyscale card are available on GitHub. https://github.com/kvanderlaag/Micront-SE30 (probably needs a newer browser) This will not give you a color signal for color output, however it will make the SE/30 display greyscale. I think if you dig around the web you can find other sets of plans as well. Greyscale is a nice addition on the SE/30, but color output is less so. Macs were originally know for their WYSIWYG output, but especially the compacts Macs were sold as WYSIWYG machines. They were hard to get into, with little space inside to work. Many of these old add ons are so hard to find now, because they were not very popular and sold rather poorly when they were released. The SE/30 was an expensive machine in its own right, and a $400 video add on, was not that appealing. If you had a work flow that needed color, you simply bought a color Mac. |
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Last Edit: November 12, 2022, 10:14 by Knezzen
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Neal_SE30
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256 MB Posts: 401 System 7 Newcomer!
Reply #1 on: November 11, 2022, 16:47
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I Definitely see where you’re coming from. The compact all-in-ones simply weren’t designed for DTP or indeed graphics/gaming. That’s what the various Macintosh II’s were for. That was very much the case at my art college. The staff had b&w compacts for doing actual work on yet for the graphic design courses they were all colour, some duel screen. I imagine a publishing house or news paper would have been same. So yes few would bother with adding such extras hence the rarity now. I would still like 640x480 giving you more flexibility on software. Would still like one.
Last Edit: November 11, 2022, 20:57 by Neal_SE30
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #2 on: March 06, 2023, 03:23
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An interesting screenshot (maybe): Of a Mac SE/30 with Xceed Micron and running Mac OS 8.1 [not a misprint] 
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wove
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1024 MB Posts: 1363
Reply #3 on: March 06, 2023, 04:59
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That is an interesting screen shot. I do not know that is possible, but I suppose. You would need to replace the SE/30 ROM with a II FX ROM chip, which is possible and was sometimes done to a get a clean ROM. The IIFX could be pretty readily tricked into running OS 8.1, but it was twice as fast or more than the SE/30. Of course there are accelerator cards for the SE/30. I would imagine it would struggle with 8.1 and seems more like a proof of concept build, than a really peppy productive machine, as it is with System 6 or 7.6. I would certainly bump the RAM up before I went that route.
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #4 on: March 06, 2023, 06:21
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You could do those things I guess, wove. But I think that would be overkill for this Mac. A lot easier [and much cheaper] to use a gestalt changer like "Wish I were" to trick an OS installer into thinking the SE/30 was a Quadra 700 or similar. Still, even though it's doable, System 7.6.1 or earlier I think is a much better platform on a stock SE/30, resource and speed wise.
Last Edit: March 06, 2023, 06:24 by MTT
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1179 System 7, today and forever
Reply #5 on: March 06, 2023, 13:53
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On this particular machine, System 7.1 with any useful updates would be a good and fair compromise: it has the best of both worlds for earlier Macs, unless or if you used System 6.0.8 either in dual boot or instead of 7 
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wove
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1024 MB Posts: 1363
Reply #6 on: March 06, 2023, 14:37
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The problem with the SE/30 and a couple other early Mac II based machines is that they do not have a clean 32bit ROM. Perhaps I warong but I do not thin utilities like "IwishIwere and wannabe" is they can change the gestalt of the machine, but they do not modify the underlining hardware. Again I am trying to remember 30 years back in time, so I might be wrong, but I do think the SE/30 would need a clean 32bit ROM in order to run OS 8.1. Best recollection is the 32bit clean ROM is needed for HFS+, which is a blocker for OS 8. Details for the SE/30 ROM can be found here: <https://se30forever.com/rom.html> probably modern browser needed.
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Neal_SE30
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256 MB Posts: 401 System 7 Newcomer!
Reply #7 on: March 06, 2023, 18:47
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It is the dirty Rom that’s the issue to running os8. You can run up to 8.1 on an se/30 but only when it’s pimped to sh**. Possibly the carrera 040 card, different rom like rominator, macron card, lots of ram. There’s a few on YouTube showing off.
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #8 on: March 07, 2023, 05:41
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Perhaps you're correct re 24bit addressing. I had thought that maybe the Mode32 INIT to patch the ROM to 32-bit, would be missing link here, between Wish I were and the dirty ROM. But what is certain to me, is that the SE/30 would also require at a minimum the Xceed Micron card*, before any contemplation of installing 8.1 would go ahead. *Or a custom built Xceed Micron card based on kvanderlaag's cloning schemata (excellent link and read btw, thanks wove). However, I would not even bother with installing or running 8.1 on this Mac. Life is too short. The linked pic above was provided as an idle curiosity -it had originated from Gamba's now defunct site (I've been unable to find it again, via the Web Archive). System 7.1.1 (System 7 Pro) is my favorite Mac OS on classic Mac hardware - once all of the "Pro" bloat is removed. Which is the OS I run on my Centris Mac. I also enjoy running System 6.0.8 on older hardware (these days limited to Mini vMac II).
Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 06:22 by MTT
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Knezzen
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Administrator 512 MB  Posts: 608 Village idiot
Reply #9 on: March 07, 2023, 08:55
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MTT: It would be interesting to hear about the benefits of 7.1.1 over 7.1 and what the pro bloat is. Would surely make an interesting read and as a guide in our “Important Updates” section. I have 7.1 on my SE/30 and I have been intrigued to update to 7.1.1, but never did.
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1179 System 7, today and forever
Reply #10 on: March 07, 2023, 13:44
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I can definitely chime-in (again) on this one! As MTT alluded to, I think it both the Pickle and Gamba gave System 7.1.1 a.k.a. System 7 Pro a big thumbs-up, and yes, with bloat due to all of the new technologies and System debugging it came with; Gamba also showed how to decluttler System 7.5.x (the free one) to be more like 7.1. The background: System 7 Pro was at the heels of 7.5.x, which introduced even more bloat and unless a Mac required 7.5 and up, System 7.1.1 was the ultimate for any Mac that came during or before this particular update; so much so that System 7 Pro was a paid update versus a free one (this was a key distinction) as it was not part of any freely-released OS group. Now the bloat comes in the form of additional technologies that you may or may not want to have in the OS and some of it might not even work on earlier Macs, hence the bloat aspect of System 7 Pro. Here's a mirror of the long-defunct and famed Gamba website (and needlessly needing a modern web-browser): Main site: https://www.vintageapple.org/gamba2/index.html 8/8.1 on SE/30: https://www.vintageapple.org/gamba2/os8_se30.html 8/8.1 on clean ROM Macs: https://www.vintageapple.org/gamba2/os8_68030.html This last one shows how to soup-up your System 7 install: System 7 add-ons: https://www.vintageapple.org/gamba2/71more.html The Pickle's site is now hosted here (Gamba's link's from the web archive): http://macfaq.org/index.shtml And here's the part that covers the System 7 add-ons needed: http://macfaq.org/software/macos.shtml#Q1.1.8 I think we have these covered in the S7T site, but it's nice to go back through memory lane!! also remember that the patched versions of OT gold 1.3 and 1.3.1 updater also work on System 7.1, too!  http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/open-transport-13-gold-master http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/open-transport-131-update-open-transport-13-68k
Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 13:46 by cballero
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #11 on: March 08, 2023, 01:51
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@cballero: The "8/8.1 on SE/30: https://www.vintageapple.org/gamba2/os8_se30.html" link. That has the pic I couldn't locate, and another pic showing an external screen in color. Plus a walk-through on how it was done. Very good to see this one. Thanks. @Knezzen: Sure. I'll open a new topic on the subject shortly.
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1179 System 7, today and forever
Reply #12 on: March 08, 2023, 03:21
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Awesome! and needless to say that I was a huge fan of System 7 Pro too back in the day! 
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Neal_SE30
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256 MB Posts: 401 System 7 Newcomer!
Reply #13 on: March 09, 2023, 21:45
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Some really good old links there.
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