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| Author | Mac OS 8.0/8.1 (Read 48832 times) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Old Mac Geezer
64 MB  Posts: 112 
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on: June 04, 2021, 07:31
I'm curious to know if anyone thinks like I do, that Mac OS 8.0/8.1 should also be included here? My reasoning is that the only reason that those versions are named MacOS 8 at all, is because of Steve Jobs using the naming as a sneaky way of putting the Mac clone makers out of business, since they were only licensed for System 7.There is a very high degree of software and hardware compatibility between System 7.6.1 and 8.1, and 8.5 is a completely different beast, breaking back compatibility with 68k Macs, entirely. 8.0/8.1 are really more like further developments of System 7, that could just as easily have been released as such, than an entirely new OS. |
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1176 System 7, today and forever
Reply #1 on: July 03, 2021, 22:51
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Mac OS 8 was always the odd child out..  I always loved it for it's GUI tweaks and additions, but it's more of a re-skinned version of System 7. And exactly like you pointed out, the real jump was to the PPC-only Mac OS 8.5. The real ac OS 8.0 in my book. Mac OS 8.0 and 8.1 were just Mac OS 7.7 and 7.8 by another name, lol. I definitely think it should be included! I mean, why not? Even though it's slowest in its class except on higher-end G2 and G3 Macs 
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB  Posts: 2023
Reply #2 on: July 04, 2021, 10:27
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Kind of a bastard child of System 7 ;-) My take is that it's a 7.6 with HFS+ support and some add-ins, many of which I personally (!) consider unnecessary bloat and a move away from the pure Mac OS that I like. While it shares some heritage with 7.6, it also carries changes that make it more OS 8.6 / 9 like. The Platinum look being the most obvious one. Dan Palka, original founder of S7T, once mentioned in regards to later versions of Mac OS that nobody creates fan clubs dedicated to athletes after they’ve become fat and out of shape. That's a colorful description of the situation. Why use 8.1 if you can have a snappier 7.6.1 ? Not to mention if you're on a 68k Mac, you don't even need 7.6 but better stick with 7.5.x or even 7.1 + some enhancements
Last Edit: July 04, 2021, 10:29 by Bolkonskij
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wove
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1024 MB Posts: 1363
Reply #3 on: July 05, 2021, 02:53
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Different folks have different ideas. Mac OS 8 and above has the advantage of being easier to find hardware for. Mac OS 8.5 introduced a kernel to the Mac. I like the themeing ability that was introduced. One thing consistent for the start though Mac OS 9.2 was that Macs were always personal computers, no need for user accounts and logins, sort of their greatest strength and greatest weakness at the same time. Personally I thought that Apple reached its zenith in UI design and usability with System 6, but with that system you really loose any internet capability although the Communication module of ClarisWorks enables you to log into a remote system and use that system. I think to do anything well you need to clearly define what it is that you do. Dan clearly did that with System7Today. It has never been hostile to other systems and there is no reason it should be, but I think it does retain its greatest value by maintaining the focus of its name.
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #4 on: July 05, 2021, 07:15
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100% agree on the personal computer statement being curse and blessing at the same time. But wow, why do you think System 6 was the zenith in UI design, wove?
Last Edit: July 05, 2021, 08:52 by Bolkonskij
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wove
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1024 MB Posts: 1363
Reply #5 on: July 05, 2021, 21:45
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To be productive at a task requires that one not only have mastery of the task to be done, but also a mastery of the tools to do the task. In the end though it is the accomplishment of the task that matters, not the tools used to do the task. Over time computer applications have become increasing complex and harder to use, branding and promotion push towards a one size fits all. System 6 fit me like a glove. By not using the multi-Finder, you ran one application at a time, which keeps distractions at a bare minimum. The UI guide lines were published, and explained, so you knew how everything worked and why it worked as it did. Muscle memory developed easy and quickly, so mastery of an operation was straight forward and universal. System 6 with the Finder was rock solid and stable, you could work comfortably all day without giving much thought to crashes. The System itself was very straight forward. Fonts and Desk Accessories were simple to add and remove, and were universal to the whole system. There were few extensions and control panel kind of things, and they to were simple to either to adjust or install and remove. The icons were simple and easy to understand, as wth other UI elements they were build from simple guidelines and followed an easy to understand pattern. So I thought that System 6 was easy to use, almost to a fault. ClarisWorks, and HyperCard were my weapons of choice. Desk Accessories gave me quick easy access to notes, calculator and other little items to make the work flow easier without distracting me from the task at hand.
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mac-cellar
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128 MB Posts: 176 Gotta love System 7
Reply #6 on: July 06, 2021, 00:12
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Well said, wove. I enjoyed reading this.
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #7 on: July 06, 2021, 15:41
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Yep, I second that. I was on 100% agree with Wove's great post .... until System 6 was mentioned. :-) I've got nothing against System 6. It was a good step forward unifying the system software. It was stable and reliable. I use it on my Mac SE most of the time I boot the old lady. Where I come from, we have a saying that translates into English something akin to "the pen painting the past paints in golden (color)". Meaning, in hindsight not using Multifinder seemed appropiate and ok, but is it really? I mean, who would want to quit a program or even reboot a Mac just to switch from e.g. your word processor to your spreadsheets to lookup a number to use in a report you're typing in your word processor? This was a severe limitation. It doesn't stop here. For some unexplained reason, on System 6 and prior you had to do some things completly different from what you had learned. Example: You got a floppy from a friend with cool Desk Accesoires you wanted use. The intuitive way for a Mac user would have been to drag that program icon off the floppy to a folder where you' d like it to be. Instead, on System 6 we had to use a third utility ("Font/DA Mover") to install DAs and Fonts on our System. Phew, cumbersome and really counter-intuitive? Apple restored the logic by introducing the "Apple Menu" folder within the System folder on System 7. Yes, Apple had a clear statement as to what they wanted Mac OS and its applications to look. But it wasn't necesarily always adhering to these standards themselves. Remember how the Control Panel looked like? Oh my. A bunch of unrelated settings slapped together in a single window. Speaker volume next to Date and RAM Cache. I found that confusing already back in the 90's. So while I totally dig your words on the end result that matters and everything else, I think you simply slipped on your keyboard. You wanted to type System 7 instead of System 6 ;-)
Last Edit: July 08, 2021, 20:23 by Bolkonskij
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wove
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1024 MB Posts: 1363
Reply #8 on: July 07, 2021, 02:18
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"Looking at the world through rose tinted glasses." is probably the English idiom closest to the Polish saying. And yes it is an easy trap to fall into. Another English idiom is: "If you are a hammer everything looks like a nail." I was a cabinetmaker by trade and my work flow follows from that line of work. You visualize a completed project, deconstruct down to tools and materials and start at the beginning moving from task to task until it has been built. Almost every task involves clearing the work bench in bringing in new materials and different tools to move forward. I find System 6 very well suited to that work flow. That of course is not the only work flow, others will build the same project using their own tools and flow. I am just a hobbyist home user, and I am sure that people who use computer as part of their professional life will have very different work flows. To justify and recoup the costs of my hobby, I created newsletters for local businesses, and for a couple businesses I did inside store signage for sales and promotions. I mostly used a Mac SE, with a 20MB hard drive and 4MB of RAM. Most everything was created in the Draw module of ClarisWorks, although other modules were used as well. I used Hypercard, creating stacks of clipart and other bits and bobs that I found useful. I invested in a nice color printer for the time, and used a Handyscan scanner to scan in logos and pictures I might need. The system did not show color, but it did output color. I do really reading how other people do things, what they like to use, and why and how their choices work for doing their tasks. My comments should never be taken as some absolute direction, but should be picked apart and used or ignored as desired.
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #9 on: July 07, 2021, 15:01
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I should have added in my post that it was my experience with System 6. Yes. Someone else might have been or might even be today very happy with just System 6 like you did. I couldn't for reasons stated and love System 7 for what it provides me, but then a whole lot of people won't understand that either. Point taken, wove. It was very interesting to read about your work experience with System 6. Being able to create newsletters on your Mac was something very powerful during the late 80's to 90's - what did you use for layouting? Really just the Draw module of ClarisWorks? It seems so ... simple? Btw - I have your past setup on the table standing next to me, except on my SE the 20 MB HDD made place for a SCSI2SD. Don't you feel like it would be cool to have that very setup again to play with it? They're still out there and usually very reliable machines ... *luring_wove_into_the_retro_mac_camp*
Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 15:02 by Bolkonskij
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Lichen Software
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128 MB Posts: 252 
Reply #10 on: July 07, 2021, 22:12
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Going back to 8.0 and 8.1 ... To be useful a computer does not have to do too much, but web browsing and email and music play back would be in there. What 8.1 does if I remember correctly, is let you go to Classilla as a web browser. This is a complete level jump in functionality. Now you have Eudora,web browser and music playback capability. i am in my way back machine, but I think you also pick up a whole eachelon of software capability. The key to keeping things alive in the realm of antique computing is some sort of funtionality. Without that, you canmot get new users. Everything is just obscure. I always ran a dual boot on my pb 1400's, but I ended up in 8.1 almost all of the time. It was not as fast, but a heck of a lot faster than any higher level. So, yup, going to 8.1 could be a good thing.
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ovalking
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128 MB Posts: 199
Reply #11 on: July 08, 2021, 15:58
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Classilla requires OS8.6. If you've found a way to run it on 8.1 please share! Actually I find myself using Classilla less these days. The number of sites which work with Classilla and don't with Netscape etc. is diminishing. If it works, the quicker, leaner Netscape is my choice. Back to the original question, I've got no problem with discussions about OS8.1 due to the technical similarities, but feel they should remain in the background, and not distract from the main topic. I use 8.1 quite a bit... and I sometimes wish I hadn't formatted in HFS+....
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acarteas
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4 MB Posts: 7 System 7 Newcomer!
Reply #12 on: July 08, 2021, 16:05
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As a newcomer to classic mac computing, I find value in this discussion. It looks like 8.1 can be run on the beige G3. Might the speed improvements offered by the G3 help offset the slight performance penalty of 8.1 vs 7.6? I'm mostly coming from the Windows world. Based on my reading of this discussion, it appears as though the 7.6 / 8.1 discussion looks very similar to the Windows 98 vs Me discussion. Most believe that 98 is the "purest" version of Win9x and that all Me did was to add bloat and remove support for running older software. Does that ring true for 7.6/8.1?
Last Edit: July 08, 2021, 16:07 by acarteas
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wove
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1024 MB Posts: 1363
Reply #13 on: July 08, 2021, 22:16
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Macs made with G3 processors require a minimum of Mac OS 8. Mac OS 8 is mostly contemporary with Windows 98. It was released after Jobs return to Apple and along side the original iMac. Apple had been trying and failing to create a new OS for sometime. Many pet projects had started at Apple during the reign of System 7, and MacOS 8 attempted to roll many of those projects into the OS. OpenDoc, DataDetectors etc were included in MacOS 8 although most could also be hung on System 7. MacOS 8 probably marks the beginning of modern Apple. I think from the original Mac through 7.0 there was solid execution and advancement of a solid vision. I see System 7.1 through 7.5.5 as Apple acting like a chicken with its head cut off. System 7.6 sees the chicken turned into diner and MacOS 8 starting a new vision forward.
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Lichen Software
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128 MB Posts: 252
Reply #14 on: July 09, 2021, 00:24
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Ok, I went to the Classilla web site and sure enough it says os 8.6 and 9. I am sure I was running it lower than that, but it has been a long time. I do not remember running the powerbooks on 8.6. 1. I am getting old and my memory is good, but short Or 2. I was running a low version of classilla and it got new and improved up to higher os values. Probably the former.
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