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| Author | After updating to 7.5.5, Power Mac 7200 won't boot with Sonnet Crescendo G3 (Read 19795 times) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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ShinobiKenobi
256 MB  Posts: 362 System 7 fan 
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on: October 05, 2024, 04:51
After quite a while of putting off updating my Power Macintosh 7200/75 from System 7.5.3 to 7.5.5, I finally updated it earlier this week. Just as expected, the Sonnet Crescendo G3 400/512 didn't work after the update. This is normal; you need to run the Crescendo driver installation program after installing a fresh system, and this is what has happened every time before. However, after the driver (re) installation, just after the "Welcome to Macintosh" screen, I get system error 11, saying to restart the computer. I click restart, and then it displays a bus error, but clicking restart locks up the computer. So I do the 3 button restart with the keyboard, hold down shift to boot with extensions disabled, and I can get it to boot to the desktop. I am using this page as a reference. (Included for full disclosure: At one point during all the black magic rituals I tried in order to appease the Mac, I reset the PRAM, and when it came back up, it said that the system disk 7.1 will not work with this model, blah blah blah. I have no idea what the hell it was talking about. The only thing that was 7.1 that I put in it, was the hdd from my LC III when I was trying to troubleshoot that cluster. I moved all the extensions from the extensions folder to the disabled extensions folder, because apparently disabling all extensions through Extensions Manager didn't disable all extensions, then it booted to the desktop.) I can't believe how many weird, unexpected, and off-the-wall random things happen with these old Macs. It seems like every little tweak I try (installing stuff or updating it) results in a detour of disorienting, confusing, and punishment-laden trials that I must endure before coming through the tunnel of insanity and out the other side. The Crescendo says it works with System 7.5.3 - 9.1. I found out there was a version "A" of the card, which they would replace with a "B" version for free that was more compatible. Mine is the "B". I made sure the "enabler" was version 1.1 like the page says. I had been using the Crescendo and it worked fine in 7.5.3, and Mac OS 8.6. It mentioned that certain 8 MB RAM modules are unstable. However, I have four 8 MB modules on the logic board, with bigger modules on the Crescendo card. Also, it has worked in this physical configuration on 7.5.3 and 8.6. I just can't get it to work with 7.5.5. At this point, I can't even remember everything I've tried, since I've probably tried at least a dozen different things now. I think at this point I need the help of a Mac master  if any would be willing to assist me. Thanks in advance!
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Last Edit: October 05, 2024, 04:54 by ShinobiKenobi
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB  Posts: 2023
Reply #1 on: October 05, 2024, 14:34
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I'm just an average user like you are, but let me ask you - if you boot 7.5.5 without extensions (yes, always physically move them out of the folder!) and then manually copy the Sonnet drivers into the Extensions / Control Panel … does that get the Crescendo working? (I may have missed that) And as the PRAM reset and the 7.1 .. I assume for whatever reason it tried to boot from your 7.1 first. Just unplug it to make things easier for the Mac  And on being nasty old machines - just try to swap out your modern Macs processor (card) with another one to speed bump it x times … ;-) (but yeah, I can "hear" your frustration right here in rural Bavaria :-) ) The best thing though is - once you've set it up and including the way you like it, they are very trusty companions that will be along your side for the years to come ;-)
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #2 on: October 05, 2024, 21:40
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I've got a 7600, and two Crescendos, one is a 500 mhz G3, the other a 400 mhz G4. Did a lot of testing/experimenting/benchmarking/torture with both while building Classilla (repeatedly). So, here's my two cents: The 7600 uses a cpu slot, so things are technically simpler...on the 7200 the soldered on 601 needs to be "disabled" by the card somehow, which I believe it is really sleeping or put in an endless waitstate. I don't believe it has sophisticated enough power management to just partially power off modules...so, yes, voodoo from the start. (On a humorous side note, I've also got a G3 card meant for a 7100, that works fine in my 6100, also a soldered 601...but sticking straight up, with no top case. It is much more...persnickety...than the Crescendos, but I haven't really pushed it like I have them). The manual for my Crescendos, admittedly probably not even closely related technically to yours other than the name, says you MUST reset the pram when switching cards so Open Firmware notices and can correctly init the cpu. I have had "black screen" boots where I needed to do this. But this being a totally different architecture, it may not apply at all to your 7200. The 7600 can't run 7.1, and, since you had good experience with 7.5 and higher, I think you might be running into OS level things. Did the original beige G3 run 7.1 or 7.5? (Maybe use an install CD for it?) For the 6100 mentioned above, I only ever ran 7.5. Long story short: 7.1 support on the G3 may just not be good. From what I can tell, the extension, for the most part is to enable the caches, which OpenFirmware doesn't detect. Having to do something like that is extremely common with G3 (and G4) upgrades. I never did more than a "how much slower does it feel" test, but that seems to be how it works. The Crescendo manual has a section about ram interleaving, that doesn't include asm much technical info as I'd like, but says it can be incompatible with the G3's caches. They recommend making sure you do NOT have multiple identical modules, or at least they be in "different banks" (the 7600 seems to have two). So my 7600's memory slots are full, but I specifically have a bizarre mix of 4m, 8m and 16m sticks (I didn't need to max it out for Classilla). Again, the 7200 is totally different, but it wouldn't hurt for you to look into if this might help. The manual also says you must remove any other cache cards, again, they'd conflict with the G3's far superior ones. I don't know if the 7200 has a cache simm/dimm, but if it does, you definitely should remove it. I'm moving my 7600 from 9.1 to 7.6, and have run into some odd boot crashes and other hitches. I had to repartition my drive since 7.6 doesn't support HFS+, and am still straightening out my system folders, but did want to mention it just "feels" a lot more stable under 9.1. I would also suspect 7.5.5 and avoid it (a bit of a patch on a patch from 7.5.3) and try 7.6 instead (despite me just saying that -I- am having issues too!). Not that it's relevant, but I mostly use the 500 mhz G3, as it is only marginally slower than the 400 mhz G4, at least for the Classilla building. I also have have a Sonnet SATA card in the 7600 and the G4 card has random crashes I never experience with the G3 when I'm using it. Wishing you TONS of luck, and hopefully something in the above might help! ---- When they were new, the organization I worked for at the time, was primarily Macs (SUCH a joy!). And we'd buy bulk. Two times I was less than thrilled was when we bought dozens of 7200s and another time 4400's. Both those models were just a little...odd...compared with the x100's and x500's etc. I'd have inexplicable user issues all the time with them, that I eventually, after researching their architectures, wrote off to them being just a bit "different". The 7200 has bus and video controllers controllers that weren't terribly common, as far as Apple products of the time go, and it was one of the very few that was PCI and Open Firmware, but with a 601. (Don't get me started on the 4400's!).
Last Edit: October 05, 2024, 21:53 by lauland
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #3 on: October 05, 2024, 23:38
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Excellent reading @lauland. Thanks for that. It took me back to my days of stuffing about with various 5xxx to 7xxx series Macs. I really wish I had a 7xxx series Mac just for System 7.x, today. But I don't, my only classic Mac's that I have left, in working order, are a 68k Centris 660av and a Beige G3. Nothing between. Quote: "Did the original beige G3 run 7.1 or 7.5?" It was Mac OS 8.0 at the earliest for the beige, and that OS also required System Enabler 770 to accompany it. Not to say it couldn't run System 7.6 at least, except for the checks in the System Enabler that won't allow it. Quote: "I'm moving my 7600 from 9.1 to 7.6, and have run into some odd boot crashes and other hitches. I had to repartition my drive since 7.6 doesn't support HFS+" It was discussed in here, how it was possible to run OS 8.1 with a 7.6.1 Finder, which gave a kind of hybrid 7.x system with HFS+ support. I did this for a while with the beige G3 and it actually worked quite well... but... somehow it (running on the beige) didn't "feel right" to me, and eventually I went back to 8.1, then up again, eventually settling on 8.6 for beige, which it currently runs.
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ShinobiKenobi
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256 MB Posts: 362 System 7 fan
Reply #4 on: October 06, 2024, 04:05
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Wow, thanks for all the awesome tips Bolkonskij and Lauland! I actually DON'T have any 7.1 disk in the 7200. That's the weird thing. I only did temporarily when I was trying to fix the hdd from the LC III. I will try your recommendations and report back with results. Update: I tried what you recommended Bolkonskij, putting the Crescendo 7200 Enabler 7 in the extensions folder, but it was ignored there. It's always worked for me in the system folder. I also tried different combinations of RAM, and none of them improved the situation. So, because the configuration worked for 7.5.3 and 8.6, I'm going to try this hardware configuration and try 7.6.
Last Edit: October 06, 2024, 06:43 by ShinobiKenobi
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #5 on: October 06, 2024, 08:31
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Oh, I'm sorry. I may have made the wrong assumption that Sonnet supplied an Extension for the Crescendo that should go into the respective folder. If it has to be copied into the System Folder as per official instructions, that would be the way to go, of course. My whole idea was to manually replicate the install process from the bare-bones Mac OS you can boot into. As for the 7.1. error while there wasn't a disk with 7.1 connected - that's odd? You don't happen to have copied the 7.1 folder to somewhere on the main HDD, have you? Only time I noticed something like that was when I had two System Folders on the same hard drive partition.
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ShinobiKenobi
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256 MB Posts: 362 System 7 fan
Reply #6 on: October 07, 2024, 06:27
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@Bolkonskij no worries, I'm willing to try anything to see what works. I discovered every time I reset the PRAM, I get the 7.1 error. The way I figured out how to fix it is to boot up from a CD and then manually set the start up disk. So it seems that when it doesn't know which system/partition to boot from, that's when it displays that error. I formatted and installed a clean 7.6 installation and then updated it to 7.6.1. Now it gets to the "Welcome to Mac OS Starting Up..." screen, and after what looks like a centimeter of progress on the bar, it totally freezes. This happens even if I move all the extensions to the disabled folder. This same screen was where I got the error 11 and then the bus error messages on 7.5.5. I wonder if the same error is happening, but getting hidden on 7.6. One thing I noticed during the Crescendo 7200 G3 installation is that there are several different enablers that can be installed. Crescendo 7200 Enabler 7 Crescendo 7200 Enabler 8 Crescendo 7200 Enabler 8.5 Crescendo 7200 Enabler 9 Crescendo 7200 Enabler 9.1 Update: After moving all extensions to the disabled folder and restarting, I walked away and came back after a while and saw that it had actually finished booting up. Apparently it just took a long time. So now I'll try it after putting extensions back in the folder. Update: I moved the extensions back, and after waiting impatiently for it to boot up, it's a functioning Mac OS 7.6.1 computer. Next thing is to get some 128 MB RAM sticks. Thanks for all your help, knowledge, and wisdom guys!
Last Edit: October 08, 2024, 05:59 by ShinobiKenobi
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #7 on: October 09, 2024, 16:29
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Yeah, there's only a single extension for the x500 cpu slot Crescendo, so the 7200 model seems VERY different, with different (additional?) ones depending on your MacOS version...so take everything I said with huge grains of salt, and only as general advisement. You'd guess those extensions would check which system version they're running on, and only the one that matched would be active, but maybe just use the "7" one for 7.6.1?
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ShinobiKenobi
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256 MB Posts: 362 System 7 fan
Reply #8 on: October 09, 2024, 20:41
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I tried different combinations of the Crescendo 7200 enabler in the system folder, and it only uses the one it needs. That's what I thought was happening, but I manually moved them just to check for sure. I wish it would have just been an extension. That seems a lot easier.
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