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| Author | Floppy disk handling in System 6 / System 7 (Read 31911 times) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Bolkonskij
Administrator 1024 MB  Posts: 2023 
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on: June 26, 2024, 16:16
The headline is a bit general, I know. But I've come to notice something with regards to my IIci, which is a dual System 6.0.8 and System 7.1 machine. And it's about the handling of floppy disks. I can initialize or make copies of disk images onto a floppies with no problem in System 7.1 using e.g. Disk Copy 4.2. Works as intended. The result will be a perfectly readable floppy disk. On System 6, however, the same floppy disk that System 7 will eat graciously, will return an error when trying to get initialized. Same goes for creating a floppy from a disk image using the same (!) Disk Copy 4.2. Am I to understand that Apple re-worked the disk handling routines with System 7 to make them less prone to errors ? Or what could be the cause? And also - am I the only one running into this issue or has somebody else noticed it before? |
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cballero
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1024 MB  Posts: 1176 System 7, today and forever
Reply #1 on: June 26, 2024, 17:43
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Sadly, when I jumped to System 7 from System 6, I never went back to 6 again, so I never had a chance to see any errors, just remember that I would make copies of my copies just in case a real floppy would fail me or got infected with a nasty, potentially destructive virus, all within the same System 6, of course 
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #2 on: June 26, 2024, 20:22
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I watch now whenever I format floppies...there's a message shown when errors occur, and it tries to work around them...you end up getting less than the normal size of the disk, because it's marked the bad sectors as "used" or something similar. It's possible System 7 does this and System 6 doesn't and/or doesn't understand such disks (and maybe tries to use the bad sectors?). Anyway, I watch and whenever I see it doing that, I cancel it, throw the floppy on the junk pile, and reach for another. Year ago I bought 100's of bulk blanks in bags, and some of my machines will reject SOME of even these "band new" disks. In those cases I suspect the drives and not the disks, but who knows? (Dirty? Out of alignment? Just old?)
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #3 on: June 27, 2024, 02:19
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@Bolkonskij: You didn't mention the actual error messages, if any? If you are introducing into SSW6, a SSW7+ formatted (locked) floppy and you get an error message along the lines of: 'Please unlock the disk "your disks name" and try again. The desktop file couldn't be created {OK}'. Which naturally means there's no System 6 compatible Desktop (database) file on the disk. Or: 'The disk "your disks name" needs minor repairs. Do you want to repair it? {OK} {Cancel}'. Which means, there is an invisible Desktop (database) file present, but it's not compatible with SSW6 and needs rebuilding. A result of being unlocked and mounted on a System 7 desktop. It's the difference between the two system's desktop files. Like a lot of software, the newer will have some backwards compatibility but the older will lack forward compatibility. The workaround is to rebuild the desktop database of those floppies in System 6 when inserting disks that have been allowed to mount unlocked in System 7+ environments. -If it fails to restore a working System 6 desktop file automatically, then try holding the Option&Command keys down when inserting the disk for rebuilding its desktop file. If the software on that floppy is intended for use mainly in System 6, keep that floppy locked if re-mounting in System 7+. Also, WRT to System 6 compatible software on disk images downloaded from archives. People creating those images are more likely to create them in systems other than SSW6, and may also mount their images unlocked onto a System 7+ desktop to check their imaging had worked. Which of course will lead to incompatibilities with System 6... and an inability to write those archived media to floppy disk using Disk Copy 4.2 when in a System 6 environment.
Last Edit: June 27, 2024, 02:40 by MTT
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #4 on: June 27, 2024, 08:48
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Very good points, gentlemen! Unfortunately, I didn't write up the exact error message. But I've gone back to check the floppies I am using to see what could be the cause here. Like lauland, I got huge stashes of them for next to nothing a few years ago. I noticed they come pre-formatted for MS-DOS and suppose that's the cause. System 7 was much further in terms of co-existing with "IBM-compatible systems" as System 6 was, so these DOS formatted floppies are probably just alien for 6, hence it reports them as being defect. To test this, I went to grab a MS-DOS formatted floppy that 6 wouldn't read, formatted it in System 7, then rebooted into System 6 and it would suddenly appear OK. So case closed I suppose - the difference is the ability of System 7 to handle MS-DOS formatted floppies. Out of interest - any software out there that could bring that capability to System 6 as well?
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #5 on: June 27, 2024, 09:46
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I have now been a long time advocate of "DOS Mounter 95" for use in System 6 & 7 This Control Panel is what you need for read/writing to DOS media in System 6. There are earlier versions of DOS Mounter, but this version is the first to support long filenames of DOS files in System 6 and 7. No more truncating to a 8x3 file naming convention - no mean feat for a System 6 Mac OS. You can map DOS file extensions to preferred Mac programs. DOS Mounter 95 handles DOS-to-Mac filename mapping better than PC Exchange in 7 Systems. There is also "DOS Mounter 98" for Systems 7 & 8 at the MG.
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mrdav
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8 MB Posts: 15 System 7 Newcomer!
Reply #6 on: June 27, 2024, 13:16
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Regarding bad sectors on floppies in System 6, there is the BAD init available on the Garden that is useful. http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/bad-11
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Johnny7
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64 MB Posts: 78 System 7 Newcomer!
Reply #7 on: June 27, 2024, 13:56
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@MTT Thanks, most excellent! 😊
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #8 on: June 29, 2024, 01:27
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@Johnny7: YW. Yes, I think that for Systems 6/7 this is an outstanding "must have" tool, esp, when you need to deal with Windows media in a classic Mac OS like System 6. For Systems 7/8, I use the next version up; "DOS Mounter 98", which adds a further 100+ file mappings, plus universal SCSI/IDE support, for mounting DOS formatted hard drives, Zip, Jaz, SyQuest, etc...
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Johnny7
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64 MB Posts: 78 System 7 Newcomer!
Reply #9 on: June 30, 2024, 22:39
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Thanks again MTT... I opted for DOS Mounter 95. I was reading the install procedure and seems straight forward enough however, reading product notes from Mac Garden, it stated "For Systems 7+ which can run Macintosh PC Exchange, it's likely to clash with that software and cause problems." Have you encountered any problems using with System 7.5.5 (if by chance you use that OS)? Also, at the bottom my PC Exchange dialog box there's a couple of radio buttons labeled "On and Off" (pic attached). Will choosing "Off" actually turn off the PC Exchange functionality (assuming I need to reboot to take effect). Also assuming I should do that before installing DOS Mounter 95? https://revontulet.org/2024/06/30/0260a35c1a0e44c7ad9fa8886db86b33.png Thanks for any reply... 😃
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #10 on: July 01, 2024, 02:47
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Hi @Johnny7, I don't allow both to reside in the Control Panels folder at the same time, and I move PC Exchange into the "Control Panels (Disabled)" folder, in favor of DOS Mounter 95 or 98. So I can only assume that the Off switch in the PC Exchange CP, may do what it suggests. Moving it out of the Control Panels folder though, is totally effective. Either way, typically you do need to reboot after installing Control Panels. Using DOS Mounter 95 in System 6 and replacing PC Exchange in System 7, has the benefit of long file name support read/write in DOS formatted disks on the Mac. When PC Exchange caught up with this feature, which wasn't until System 7.6 or 7.6.1, it becomes more of a choice then of which is better. DOS Mounter still wins out for me here, as its file mapping DOS <-> Mac remains superior to that found in PC Exchange.
Last Edit: July 02, 2024, 02:44 by MTT
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