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Author System 7 bug I have never come across ... (Read 13249 times)
Bolkonskij
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on: August 02, 2022, 17:35

... even after 30 years of using System 7.1. Arguably, it only affects 7.0 and 7.1 (read below) but I wonder if one of you ever had that happen?

Besides, it's interesting to read that chat about upcoming changes to System 7 :-)

Quote
AFA GeneS:
Can you explain just what the so-called "Disappearing Folders" bug is all about?

JusSomeGuy:
Some users have complained that many of their folders and files have suddenly "disappeared" from their Finder windows. The disappearance is sudden and, frankly, kind of frightening.  The Find feature in Finder can locate and display the missing items, but once the window is closed the files disappear again.

 The problem is caused by a bug in the file system  (HFS).  This mistake in the ROM has been present in  all versions of HFS, going back to 1985.

AFA GeneS:
Greg, is there anything about system 7 that causes this problem to appear?

JusSomeGuy:
A set of bizarre coincidences in System 7 trigger the bug.  For the terminally curious, the bug is in the code that does a rename operation.  The way the Finder keeps track of folders on the desktop can cause some rename operations to damage a data structure the file system uses to keep track of currently open files.

Actually, the file control  block that gets damaged is one of the desktop database files used to keep track of icons and document types. If, at a later time during the same session (i.e. no reboot in between), the desktop database file is expanded then the in-memory damage migrates to the disk's catalog b*-tree.  The catalog b*-tree is used to keep track of all the files and folders on the disk.  When it gets damaged, some files and folders become inaccessible and "disappear".

AFA GeneS:
What does a user do in system 7 that sets off this bizarre chain of events?

JusSomeGuy:
Creating a new folder on the desktop, and then renaming it, may cause the in-memory damage. I want to stress that this will not always happen, because the damage is dependent on the file ID of the desktop database file being a certain number. After the in-memory damage occurs, the damage will not always move to the disk.  Also, moving the folder to the hard disk's window seems to be required to make the  directory damage happen, although we're not certain of this.

AFA GeneS:
What does the new System 7 "Tuner" do to prevent this kind of damage?

JusSomeGuy:
System 7 Tuner, version 1.1.1, contains a patch that will prevent the damage from occurring.  Running Tuner 1.1.1 is a sure way to avoid this bug.  Once a disk is  damaged, though, Tuner does nothing to repair it. We're working on a new version of Disk First Aid to do this, and 3rd party disk utility developers are also quickly responding to this  situation.

AFA GeneS:
So future versions of those hard disc utilities will incorporate a means to fix this kind of damage?

JusSomeGuy:
Yes.  But, if you run Tuner you'll be protected. Also, future releases of system software will include the fix.

AFA GeneS:
If someone has the damage now, what's the solution- is there a solution for them?

JusSomeGuy:
The only solution is to backup what you can and erase the disk.  The Read Me file that comes with Tune-Up 1.1 has a detailed set of instructions on how to do this.  This is one Read Me file you definitely don't want to skip!

AFA GeneS:
Are there any other changes in the Tune-Up 1.1.1  package?

JusSomeGuy:
The only other change is a new LaserWriter driver, version 7.1.1.

AFA GeneS:
What are the changes in the new LaserWriter driver?

JusSomeGuy:
7.1.1 was primarily developed to support the new Personal LaserWriter NTR printer.  In addition some problems reported with version 7.1 of the driver were fixed.  Most notably: a problem with the LaserWriter Plus causing PostScript errors or spontaneous printer restarts, and a couple of PostScript errors caused on LaserWriter IIf and IIg printers.

AFA GeneS:
Can you give us any clues about what's to be in the next major system software release and when it might be released?

JusSomeGuy:
The next version of System 7 is geared toward full international support.  Most of the subscribers to AOL won't find it very exciting, since they never have a need for fully integrated TrueType, Kanji fonts or in-line input methods for languages like Japanese or Arabic.  We should be beta soon, with a release targeted for late summer or early fall.

AFA GeneS:
Any bug fixes or improvements in performance expected?

JusSomeGuy:
Not really.  Unfortunately the size of our engineering and testing departments limits the number of things we can do at one time.  All the Tuner fixes are included, though, along with a few minor tweaks
 to performance.

AFA GeneS:
What about these drop-in Extensions that have been reported, to extend System 7? Is that something that might be on the horizon?

JusSomeGuy:
There are a number of projects going on right now that will probably be shipped in the form of "additional software" (the term currently in vogue  here) instead of with a major system upgrade.

AFA GeneS:
Any clues yet as to what features this "additional software" will include?

JusSomeGuy:
Well, a number of things have been reported in the press lately...but I'm not sure what's been "officially" acknowledged to exist at this point. So I'll just wimp out and play it safe and say "MacWeek sure prints interesting rumors, doesn't it?

AFA GeneS:
And thank you, Greg, as always for a very informative discussion.
Last Edit: August 02, 2022, 22:04 by Bolkonskij
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Reply #1 on: August 23, 2022, 10:21

I remember moving a folder around once as a kid on our home computer and having it just... disappear. I was quite sad as it was Kid Pix! Haha.

I looked all around the drive for it. Maybe I just didn't look in the right place. Or maybe it was a victim of the folder disappearing bug. But I'm pretty sure I would have tried Fast Find to try and search for it...
cballero
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Reply #2 on: August 23, 2022, 13:29

The 'Mac' magician's up to its old tricks!

"And now for my next trick", "I will make a folder disappear!"

Poof, the folder mysteriously disappears! "Voila!" says the triumphant Mac and the audience applauds, but then all you hear is silence.

Finally the Mac confesses, "Now I only wish I knew how to make it magically reappear!" :o
Knezzen
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Reply #3 on: August 28, 2022, 22:24

This is more of a HFS problem than a System 7.x problem. Working on a special 7.6 "distribution" for S7T with full HFS+ support that should fix this issue once and for all :)
cballero
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Reply #4 on: August 28, 2022, 23:51

Whoa! :o this is one of the most awesome posts I've seen in a good while! :D

but having said this, I must also admit that I absolutely love all of our posts :)

It compares to other amazing efforts that have brought other Mac OSes like OS 9 to G4 Mac Minis, but System 7.6 has always had a special place for me being the last official System 7 release that can run on the fastest real Macs! ;)
wove
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Reply #5 on: August 29, 2022, 00:27

This really is not System 7 related, but damn, there is an iso to install OS9 on a G4 Mac mini. I had no idea that existed. I traded a 17" PowerBook G4 to a friend in exchange for a G4 Mac mini. I have been using it to run Morph OS and had no idea that running OS 9 was even possible on a mini.

I guess I should pay more attention to Classic Mac on hardware. I pulled an older 120GB SSD apart, found that the inner workings were small enough to plug a SATA to IDE adaptor into the end and have it fit inside Mini (that usually works for installing on Powerbooks as well). Does anyone know if a G4 Mini can boot from USB? What is used to burn a Mac installer CD on Linux or Mac OS X?
cballero
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Reply #6 on: August 29, 2022, 03:43

Oh man, I crashed and failed at getting a few diskless Minis I got off eBay to boot off a Firewire drive loaded with this special OS9 boot installer image, so I kind off left that project aside :(

But I think if I install an internal drive, possibly how you're describing it, Wove, I may finally have my OS9 Mac Mini.. can you imagine the fun of running Classic on one of those cool, new (old) Macs?? :D
Bolkonskij
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Reply #7 on: August 29, 2022, 06:51

@wove - booting from USB like with a USB stick? I don't think that works. Try getting the optical drive in the Mini working again. I found most of them are just full of dirty after the years. I revived mine with a "cleaning CD" when I tought it was a goner. Never thought these discs work .. but it did for me.

Installing via optical drive still is the most convenient way. Does anyone know if external optical drives (e.g. via FireWire) will work too?

I'd try Toast on modern OSX to burn the Mac OS 9 install disk. Are you using the RossDarker image from OS9Lives or the Mac Garden image?

Mac OS9 on a Mac Mini is just plain awesome. It's incredibly fast and fun to use. And with the Mini's power usage of 85 Watt max, it's also a very economical way to run Mac OS.
Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 06:56 by Bolkonskij
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