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| Author | What software is required to get a 68k 7.1 Mac online? (Read 40452 times) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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ShinobiKenobi
256 MB  Posts: 362 System 7 fan 
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on: January 17, 2025, 12:00
My LC III doesn't have a networking control panel, but Netscape Navigator 3.0 says it can't create a socket. I found Open Transport 1.1.1, but it said it doesn't have the files and quit installation. It looks like a 7.1 system by itself doesn't support TCP/IP out of the box, at least the one I installed didn't. I'm able to share files between it and my Power Macintosh 7200/75 running Mac OS 8.6 by connecting a din serial cable to both computers on the printer port. But that's the only networking option that works on my LCIII. I looked at my router's access control, and it didn't even show the LCIII as being connected on the network. |
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wove
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1024 MB Posts: 1363
Reply #1 on: January 17, 2025, 12:59
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Perhaps System7Today can come to the rescue. The Ultimate Update List has a list of the software updates for System 7.1 on 68k Macs. The forums are a really great and fun place to get advice and it is easy to overlook all the other great assets available on the site.
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1179 System 7, today and forever
Reply #2 on: January 17, 2025, 14:04
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Indeed, Bolkonskij had a similar issue with his Mac IIci, discussed at the MG. A special version of Open Transport was used, which might be part of the solution you’re looking for in case the software you try from the S7T update list isn’t enough to get the job done 
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #3 on: January 17, 2025, 15:14
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Before Open Transport, there was MacTCP. I used it quite a bit back in the day: http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/mactcp-206 NOTE: Just sharing files is via the AppleTalk protocol, not TCP/IP, so you wouldn't need MacTCP for that, it'd be for the real Internet, ie really "online". But, it is persnickety, hard to set up, so if you can get Open Transport to work, definitely go that way. Esp since more recent internet apps (but not just sharing) will require it. I've never used OT in 7.1, only 7.5 and higher. You know you have OT if you have "AppleTalk" and "TCP/IP" Control Panels, as opposed to "Network" and (optional) "MacTCP". Now, doing sharing via the printer port is sometimes called "LocalTalk", and typically uses "PhoneNet" with adapters. I've never done it with just a serial cable, I think that's possible in theory, but you might need a special cable. You can't mix it with ethernet unless you have a bridge of some kind. There are good software ones that you could run on the 7200 (so it could act as a gateway). If you're just sharing between those two (as opposed to "the Internet"), you wouldn't need that...but your 7200 couldn't use ethernet at the same time without a bridge. (You'd be switching which port it used in the "AppleTalk" Control Panel). So you're really dealing with two separate issues, the network software (Open Transport), and the network hardware (serial vs ethernet).
Last Edit: January 17, 2025, 15:20 by lauland
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wove
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1024 MB Posts: 1363
Reply #4 on: January 18, 2025, 02:28
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Connecting Macs via Serial Cable works fine. It was our first networking setup.. I have a 20' (6meter) Mac printer cable still hanging on the wall along with lots of other cables. There is no special cable needed on the Mac. You can connect to other machines serial as well, but for Windows and Linux/BSD you need to make a special cable often referred to as a null modem cable. It makes for cheap and easy connectivity. One computer using a dial up to AOL could get something online and then pass it on to others in the family with just a serial cable. Although I am not sure, I believe the Apple //GS could connect with Macs the same way. Seems odd to think that home networking use to have speeds in the kbps.
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1179 System 7, today and forever
Reply #5 on: January 18, 2025, 03:34
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Oh, and a tip from the links provided: if MacTCP is to be used while having OT installed, ensure to run the Network Selector utility to pick it since OT apparently takes over and disables MacTCP when its installed.
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ShinobiKenobi
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256 MB Posts: 362 System 7 fan
Reply #6 on: January 19, 2025, 03:35
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Thanks everyone, yeah I spend so much time on the boards that I sometimes forget about the other sections. I installed some of those on the list. It recommended not to use OT unless I had 7.5.3 or higher, IIRC. I don't remember what it said last night. I applied the 3.0 update, although it still says it's 7.1. Is it supposed to be 7.1.3? I also saw that they specifically said the update was 3.0, indicating there might be some incremental updates. I installed the thread manager, object lib stuff, I don't remember what all I installed so far. I'll try to finish going through that list tomorrow. I like serial because of the low equipment requirements. Especially on Macs. I'd like to try to network my IIGS with one of my Macs, but I'm limited on space near the GS. Back in the early 2000s, I would have loved to have internet speeds equal to the speed data transfers over this din serial cable. I estimate it's around 20-50 kilobytes/second. I could just see that the file sizes changed in 50 KB increments. Back then, I was happy to get 7 KB/s download speed, and rarely got above 10. I always get LocalTalk and AppleTalk mixed up. And that's really good to know cballero!
Last Edit: January 19, 2025, 03:37 by ShinobiKenobi
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #7 on: January 19, 2025, 03:53
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Networking over serial is just amazing, and a hoot and a half! You can do so much with so little, if you're just willing to try. I'd love to get my IIgs talking to my Macs too...but am also limited by space. My beige Macs all share desk space (and monitor, mouse and keyboard), with the IIgs in there too. I've been meaning to set them all up with localtalk (appletalk over phonenet, to be precise, I think?), so I can get my ancient B&W PowerBooks connected too. What I've been meaning to do is set up the beige powermac running the Apple ethernet<->localtalk gateway. It could run headless, maybe with AppleShare IP and do double duty. (I love AppleShare IP on my Blue and White G3). My IIgs has all the AppleTalk drivers installed, but never tried them. Did you know it's even possible to BOOT a IIgs off an AppleShare server? http://www.synack.net/~bbraun/iigsboot.html Sounds like a project (or two or three) for this weekend...
Last Edit: January 19, 2025, 04:02 by lauland
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ShinobiKenobi
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256 MB Posts: 362 System 7 fan
Reply #8 on: January 19, 2025, 04:25
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Yeah, I saw that option in the IIGS control panel. That really would be cool to do. And thanks for the link. that looks like it has tons of really good info!
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB  Posts: 2023
Reply #9 on: January 19, 2025, 09:52
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Thank you @wove for linking to the ultimate update list. That one has been carefully assembled, mostly by S7T founder Dan Palka, and with a few updates by us after taking over a few years back. I'm running the stuff on my IIci, so I attest they do work. You do want Open Transport 1.3 as the earlier versions have a reputation as being buggy / unstable. (something I didn't experience in my brief encounters with OT 1.1, but I want to pass the info on nonetheless) Things like ThreadManager, Drag&Drop Manager etc. from that list essentially give you System 7.5 compatibility with a lot of software, especially stuff that involves networking. So even if something says it requires 7.5 or higher, you may get it to work fine on 7.1 using these extensions! As pointed out, you need the full OT thing, not the patches. I also remember that I had to download and unstuff the archive on my IIci. If I'd do so on my G4 and copy just the images via network, it'd fail to install them. Let us know if you suceed, please :-)
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #10 on: January 20, 2025, 04:21
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Got my pm7600 and pb170 sharing over phonenet. Great fun! Yes, slow, but a lot faster than floppies! (pb180 wouldn't start, either died, or I left System folder screwed up, equal chance to both). I noticed something that I never knew before...with OpenTranport, you can have the AppleTalk protocol going over the printer port, but at the same time TCP/IP protocol going over ethernet. So on my pm7600 was able to browse MG, and share files with my pb170 at the same time, using both networks. Very cool, for some reason I thought it was all one port or the other! For those of you with multiple machines, you should take a look at this utility. It will scan via AppleTalk (localtalk or ethernet, whichever is active) and show you a graphical view of all that it finds. A long time ago, when I managed a network with multiple zones, it was a life saver. http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/trawl-102 ---- This can be used to bridge localtalk and ethernet. It didn't seem to work on my pm7600 running MacOS 8.1, but I installed 7.6 and it works like a charm. The readme says it will probably even work in 8.5 (unsupported, but tested working?), so don't know why I had trouble. Otherwise I would've guessed the version of OpenTransport 8.1 had was too new? http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/localtalk-bridge-21 Using it I was able to mount my B&W G3's shared files on my pb170, the pm7600 silently invisibly translating. So all my machines talking. Will try and get the IIgs in on it next...
Last Edit: January 20, 2025, 05:36 by lauland
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ovalking
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128 MB Posts: 199
Reply #11 on: January 20, 2025, 11:44
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Although Open Transport was introduced after 7.1 (first appeared with 7.5.2 I think), it can be retrospectively installed. http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/open-transport-13-gold-master should do the job. OT 1.3 requires at least 7.1 & 68030. Localtalk - Hardware, cabling system Appletalk - Software, network protocoll
Last Edit: January 22, 2025, 11:02 by ovalking
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ShinobiKenobi
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256 MB Posts: 362 System 7 fan
Reply #12 on: January 20, 2025, 23:55
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Thanks again to everyone for the awesome support. I am in the process of helping a friend get his SE/30 back up and running, so I'll resume my work on my LC III after that. That's an awesome discovery Lauland! I never thought about it, but I've been using my PM 7200 that way, the PM being connected to the Internet and simultaneously connected to my LC XD @ovalking Thanks for the easy-to-remember clarification!
Last Edit: February 02, 2025, 04:00 by ShinobiKenobi
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ShinobiKenobi
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256 MB Posts: 362 System 7 fan
Reply #13 on: February 01, 2025, 10:45
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@lauland what adapters did you use to connect them with PhoneNet? I got a Belkin PhoneNet adapter, and now I need to get a few more. I'd like to try using LocalTalk cords sometime also. It came with a bare jack with a resistor in it. Is that a terminator?
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lauland
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512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!
Reply #14 on: February 01, 2025, 16:58
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Mine are "TurboNetST" from "Focus", wedge shaped black translucent plastic. I'm having trouble finding them on the net...sorry, these were about all I could find, in Russian... https://ru.pc-history.com/focus-turbonet-st.html And this German site shows several, but mine is towards the bottom... https://www.brix.de/computer/localtalk_sx.html (modern browsers) I saved them from a job where I used to manage a quite elaborate localtalk/ethernet (with a GatorBox router) network for a Local University decades ago (where I used DreamWeaver from the other post), knew I'd want them SOMEDAY. We bought them in bulk by the dozens. We also had MANY other brands, the white boxy ones that are more common. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GatorBox (modern browser) So my 7600 with the LocalTalk Bridge software is doing the job the GatorBox did. The resistors are important, you need one on both ends. Maybe not if you just have two, but key if you daisy chain them, so no matter how many nodes you have, you'll end up two resistors. They "terminate" the signal and keep it from "bouncing" back. Things will work sorta without them, but if you don't have them you'll lose packets. At the University we had a "star" and not a chain, with actual LocalTalk specific hardware boxes...so we needed a resistor for each node. It was wired in the phone jacks of the building, alongside actual audio phones (with people ALWAYS plugging the wrong thing in the wrong jack), and I cut my teeth on networking tracing the "risers" in the "network closets". Ah...memories...
Last Edit: February 01, 2025, 17:03 by lauland
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