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Author Happy 40th birthday, Macintosh! (Read 103761 times)
MTT
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Reply #15 on: February 09, 2024, 01:24

There's an excellent interview (one of several) with Steve Jobs as he retells the experience of his visit to Xerox Parc and the immediate revelation and effect it had on him of how computing should and could be, from that visit.

It's in the "Triumph of the Nerds" a series of interviews and archival footage along with the major and minor players involved in the development of personal computers.

Some fascinating period footage in there, it was a 3 part tv series (from the mid-1990's) archived to DVD.
Last Edit: February 09, 2024, 01:31 by MTT
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Reply #16 on: February 09, 2024, 11:28

Any chance that's available in QT format anywhere?

Btw. did Steve ever mention how he felt about being ousted by John Sculley of all people?

I mean, the archetypical business type who wouldn't have given a nerd a sandwich for free, if not for history forcing his hand.

A former Pepsi Co. manager and just like D. Rumsfeld utterly convinced of the theorem, that technical knowledge only hinders a manager in his decision making process. (Yes, there is this school of thought and it runs strong in the boardroom).

Yeah, the revenge of the Nerds happened. And it was followed by the revenge of the bean counters and the "let's sell ice cubes to the Eskimos" people. :(
Last Edit: February 09, 2024, 11:55 by 68040
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Reply #17 on: February 09, 2024, 13:28

Quote from: 68040
And I am sure he got well paid for it. :o

Actually, he wasn't at all. It was a post on usenet, within the precursor newsgroup of what is today's comp.sys.mac, right after the launch of the Macintosh. But I felt it's a great showcase for how many of the "old guard" of computing felt about the Mac upon it's release - and certainly many of the tech journalists of the day as well.

As for the Triumph of the Nerds, that's a very nice one! I haven't seen it. 7 GB is quite some data but I guess it's a prime candidate for getting some nice new Quicktime movies out of it for Cornica. Thanks for mentioning it, @MTT!

And the way Steve felt about getting ousted by Sculley is pretty obvious I think? Given to what he did to all of Sculley's projects, especially Sculley's "pet project" Newton, when he returned. Apple had the best PDA on the market at the time (MessagePad 2000/2100) and he deliberately killed it only to "re-invent" things with the iPhone a few years later. Making it HIS project.
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Reply #18 on: February 09, 2024, 14:01

Well, to be frank. The Newton might have been a stroke of technical genius, but commercially it as an utter failure.

I doubt Sculley had the genius to package new ideas in a format that could inspire the broader community. The Newton was a PIM device with limited phone-capabilities attached.

That concept utterly failed even in the Windoze mobile market segment. What was needed was a fully functional phone that could also act as PIM and as an email device and as a Web browser.

And when I say Web Browser I don't mean that awful Windows mobile and Palm Pilot concept (anyone still remember those ubiquitous Palm devices?), where every webpage had to be custom designed to be mobile "displayable".

Same goes for many e-mail accounts back then. No, you needed something you could access standard web sites and browse normal e-mail with.

And being able to play music & videos on it - w/o first having to convert them on your PC.

What made me feel outright hostile to the many Palm Pilots I used to own, was their utter dependencies on a PC nearby. For some of my pocket computers I spend more $ than for the laptop I just had to hook them onto, even for such mundane tasks as software updates.

It was ridiculous, because it meant I had to slug my Thinkpad around with me and my pocket computer. But that wasn't the original idea when I bought the thing.

Steve recognized that what people wanted was not yet another reason never to leave house w/o their laptop. They wanted a fully functional computer and entertainment device, that could fit into their trouser pocket.

And that is what he gave them - a million+1 broken iPhone displays be prove for that! :D
Last Edit: February 09, 2024, 14:06 by 68040
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Reply #19 on: February 09, 2024, 23:30

What? Are we forgetting Gil Amelio (and Michael Spindler)? After Spindler, Amelio became CEO of Apple and it was he that set the split up and restructuring of Apple's assets wheels in motion. It was he that decided on "Plan A" and not "Plan B", and it was he that brokered the purchase of NeXT and brought Steve Jobs back to Apple.

It was Jobs who dotted the i's and crossed the t's with the cuts and brought the inspiration and drive for Apple's next direction. The demise of the Mac OS as we knew it then, and the emergence of a new corporate age...

It's easy to discount Sculley's input to Apple (when stood next to the giant persona of Jobs). But don't forget he oversaw Apple's development and transition from Apple II technology to the Macintosh and Mac OS, from System 0 through to System 7.1, some 10 years of its development, ups and downs.

@68040: "Revenge of the Nerds" was a cheesy 80's teen comedy movie. "Triumph of the Nerds" was something quite different ;)

I don't know of any QT movies split from the DVD, but there will be I'm sure, if you search online. I know that all 3 of the episodes are available on You Tube: "Triumph of the Nerds: Part 1: Impressing Their Friends" Parts 2 and 3 will be there somewhere, too.

Also, PBS has the complete transcripts of the series (http friendly).
"Triumph of the Nerds -The Television Program Transcripts"

The Jobs - Xerox Parc backstory is in Part 3

Spoiler Alert! - Here's the transcript of that bit in the episode:

Quote from: Triumph of the Nerds - Part 3: Great Artists Steal
Narrator:
"Steve Jobs had co-founded Apple Computer in 1976. The first popular personal computer, the Apple 2, was a hit - and made Steve Jobs one of the biggest names of a brand-new industry. At the height of Apple's early success in December 1979, Jobs, then all of 24, had a privileged invitation to visit Xerox Parc."

Steve Jobs:
"And they showed me really three things. But I was so blinded by the first one I didn't even really see the other two. One of the things they showed me was object orienting programming they showed me that but I didn't even see that. The other one they showed me was a networked computer system...they had over a hundred Alto computers all networked using email etc., etc., I didn't even see that. I was so blinded by the first thing they showed me which was the graphical user interface. I thought it was the best thing I'd ever seen in my life. Now remember it was very flawed, what we saw was incomplete, they'd done a bunch of things wrong. But we didn't know that at the time but still though they had the germ of the idea that was there and they'd done it very well and within you know ten minutes it was obvious to me that all computers would work like this some day."

Narrator:
"It was a turning-point. Jobs decided that this was the way forward for Apple."

Adele Goldberg -Founder, PARC Place Systems:
"He came back and I almost said 'asked', but the truth is, demanded that his entire programming team get a demo of the SmallTalk System and the then head of the science centre asked me to give the demo because Steve specifically asked for me to give the demo and I said no way. I had a big argument with these Xerox executives telling them that they were about to give away the kitchen sink and I said that I would only do it if I were ordered to do it cause then of course it would be their responsibility, and that's what they did."

Demonstration
The mouse is a pointing device that moves a cursor around the display screen.

Narrator:
"Adele and her colleagues showed the Apple programmers an Alto machine running a graphical user interface."

Demonstration
A selected window displays above other windows much like place a piece of paper on top of a stack on a desk.

Narrator:
"The visitors from Apple saw a computer that was designed to be easy to use, a machine that anybody could operate and find friendly...even the French."

Bill Atkinson -Designer, Macintosh Development Team:
"I think mostly what...what we got in that hour and a half was inspiration and just sort of basically a bolstering of our convictions that a more graphical way to do things would make this business computer more accessible."

Larry Tesler:
"After an hour looking at demos they understood our technology, and what it meant more than any Xerox executive understood after years of showing it to them."

Steve Jobs:
"Basically they were copier heads that just had no clue about a computer or what it could do. And so they just grabbed eh grabbed defeat from the greatest victory in the computer industry. Xerox could have owned the entire computer industry today. Could have been you know a company ten times its size. Could have been IBM - could have been the IBM of the nineties. Could have been the Microsoft of the nineties."

Narrator:
"For Steve Jobs the road to Damascus passed through Palo Alto. He persuaded the Apple board to invest in technology copying what he'd seen at Xerox Parc - his instrument of change. They hired a hundred engineers and started developing a new PC code-named Lisa. But there were problems. They couldn't get it to work properly and the price-tag was heading toward $10,000 - way too much for the average PC buyer. Jobs' domineering style drove everyone nuts too, so the board ousted him from his own pet project."

Steve Jobs:
"You know I brooded for a few months, but it was not very long after that that it really occurred to me that if we didn't do something here the Apple 2 was running out of gas and we needed to do something with this technology fast or else Apple might cease to exist as the company that it was."

Narrator:
"Jobs found his answer from Jeff Raskin, Apple employee number 31. Raskin's idea was a $600 computer - as easy to use as a toaster - code-named Macintosh, after America's favorite apple. Jobs liked the price but not Raskin's design ideas. So Steve took over the Macintosh project, determined to make it a cheaper Lisa."

Steve Jobs:
"And so I formed a small team to do the Macintosh and we were on a mission from God, you know, to save Apple."

On the mindset of Jobs, here's another Jobs' quote from the series:
"And I'm also one of these people: I don't really care about being right you know, I just care about success."

Last Edit: February 10, 2024, 05:32 by MTT
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Reply #20 on: February 10, 2024, 15:40

We are made one in our efforts to connect beautiful pieces cohesively.. that was the magic though, having that vision for something amazing and beautiful for non-computer-oriented, everyday people to not only use, but have fun using! :D

Here's one of the set-apart things I think Steve saw in this:

Whether you're a mom, dad, kid, grandma, aunty or what-have-you, it didn't matter.. this tiny box had the power to change your life creatively! The GUI gave you a world to explore and evangelizing that idea got developers on board to 'share the wealth' so-to-speak, and most likely unconsciously, the command-line power users were a bit peeved, jealous or otherwise put-out by the fact that pretty much anybody without a lick of computer understanding could just use such a mouse-driven interface to work and play at their leisure (remember, the Internet was even a thing yet, well, it was, but it didn't have the explicit goals of the World-Wide-Web: to create free content for everyone to share, but more for scientific and educational R&D as well as a way to connect with fellow computer-hobbyists/enthusiasts.. at least I knew nothing of it; my school's Macs had sneaker-net, share-among-yourselves copies of stuff and so many viruses, it was Mac mayhem at it's height! But no real networking.. phonet, as it was called, was something I discovered at my first computer job, where I happened upon FileMaker 2.1, and wow, the levels of Mac-amazing just kept climbing in that era!)

To serious command-line users and programmers though, the Mac seemed a real joke, but through Job's guidance, the joke was on the them in the end.. the latest Operating Systems, even the command-intensive world of Linux, has been tamed by the likes of Chrome OS (blatant, updated iteration of Mac's, well okay Xerox's lol, GUI-friendliness - and yes, a highly-modified Debian Linux variant - straight out of the box), macOS, with it's ever changing OS names lol, Mac OS, System 7.. and finally Windows, now at version 11, so much like the first two it's not even funny.. Steve led the way for Gates and the rest to follow, christening the move with the Macintosh; he had it right from the get go, even if the DOS and the rest of the PC and SPARC station computing world shunned it at it's birth.

And yes, the rest of course is Mac, and modern computing, history! :D
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Reply #21 on: February 12, 2024, 09:07

Quote from: 68040
Well, to be frank. The Newton might have been a stroke of technical genius, but commercially it as an utter failure.

I doubt Sculley had the genius to package new ideas in a format that could inspire the broader community. The Newton was a PIM device with limited phone-capabilities attached.

That concept utterly failed even in the Windoze mobile market segment. What was needed was a fully functional phone that could also act as PIM and as an email device and as a Web browser.

And when I say Web Browser I don't mean that awful Windows mobile and Palm Pilot concept (anyone still remember those ubiquitous Palm devices?), where every webpage had to be custom designed to be mobile "displayable".

Same goes for many e-mail accounts back then. No, you needed something you could access standard web sites and browse normal e-mail with.

And being able to play music & videos on it - w/o first having to convert them on your PC.

I always thought the Newton had cost Apple a lot of money. However, when I dug deeper, it turned out to be not true. The "Love notes to Newton" documentary also highlights that fact. Newton is said to have been worst-case a break-even - or even earning a modest plus, according to those involved in the project at the time.

The other criticisms are noted, but then, look at the timeframe we're talking about. The MP2000/2100 were top-notch technology at an affordable price for its day. There were simply no better packages out on the market!

Color Touch-Screen technology was not a mass-market technology back then. You can't blame Newton for not using it. Also - from what I understand, many telephones were still analog in North America! There was no wide-spread GSM coverage. How would you include telephone services with it? Despite that, Newton already had a browser and good e-mail capabilities. It was also able to display videos, albeit in black & white. In fact, according to Larry Yaeger of Apple, a lot of Newton technology ended up in other products - such as the iPhone!

Like I said, Newton was cutting edge at the time and was axed by Jobs as an act of revenge (he wasn't exactly a forgiving guy). Sculley certainly made mistakes, but he also got a lot of things right. He opened the Mac architecture and introduced the low-cost Macs to increase market presence in the home + education market. I probably wouldn't be a Mac user if it wasn't for the LC our family bought back then.

Gil Amelio is the most underrated CEO Apple ever had IMO. It's ironic how Jobs did to him what Sculley had done to him 10+ years before. (and led Jobs to bitterly whine about it in public - before he did the same)
Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 14:34 by Bolkonskij
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Reply #22 on: February 17, 2024, 15:07

Quote from: Ben Hyde, Feb. 15th 1984
I would like to hear from actual Macintosh owners. I have had one for about a week now, I am content.  I would like to trade and exchange bits of experiance.

  - Headers are best slide under the main window in MacWord.
  - I like the way it will paste into a selection in MacPaint.
  - Have you noticed that you don't seem to be able to select multiple objects and print them all, an act that seems plausable via an analogy with selection of multiple objects and requesting info.
  - The system crashs if one empties the trash when it happens to contain an object who's infomation window is open.
  - Any ideas on how a large disk is going to fit into a system where all     object names on a disk are unique?

My favorite trick is to make bubbles.

  - draw circle,
  - spray on some shadow,
  - fatbit on the edge, and take one bit out,
  - lasso the bubble, the hole you make lets the lasso leak into the bubble,
  - make copies, do scaleing, etc.

The cutting holes into things gimic to get transparent things is very useful.  One easy way to do it is to draw a line, using opion to get a line in the present paint, with clear paint.  This can be used to cut holes in large patterned areas, which one can then pour paint into to get patterned strips.

I would love to hear about some good tricks for working with large drawings.

Another happy 128k customer, it seems. Excuse me, I now have to get-info on a file that I push to the trash and see if opening the trash will still freeze my Mac (on Mac OS 9.2 right now) as per above :D
Last Edit: February 17, 2024, 15:11 by Bolkonskij
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Reply #23 on: March 24, 2024, 15:35

The very same Ben Hyde a few weeks later:

Quote from: Ben Hyde, March 24th 1984
I've had my Macintosh for about a month.  It continues to be great.  I have found only one bug in the last three weeks, its very obscure and in MacPaint.

The most frustrating thing about the mac is speed. The applications take time to start up, the disk seems to be the bottle neck, I presume that more memory would solve this problem, I wonder if I wouldn't rather have the second drive be ram disk.  It isn't really slow compaired to other floopy based systems its just that I value those few moments every day that I'm willing to work very highly and I hate to watch them dribble away.

The applications are a real pleasure. It is a rare moment in computing when you aren't regualarly irritated by some boundary condiditon in the software.

MacWrite really grows on you, I wish for a little of the vi/emac kind of power but the mouse is so zippy that I rank MacWrite is a close second to vi in my ranking.  As a formater it isn't Scribe but it comes close on the user friendly axis, on the archecture axis is isn't much very special once you've gotten over the increadable power of the what you see is what you get feedback.

 MacPaint is magic.  The author of this program is wizard, I don't think I've ever see a program this perfect.  Its so smooth, no edges, so very accessable. And like scribe there is very substantail power hidden under that surface.

The Microsoft spreadsheet is fine. It has all the limits of a classic spread sheet, I have a lot of trouble viewing the universe as one giant array.  The user interface is everything it should be, Apple has set a good example and Microsoft didn't blow it.  I've found a dozen or so little nits in it, mostly off my one problems, I don't believe they let enough talented users beat on it, and the author wasn't an artist but a competent hacker.  The manual doesn't exactly agree with the implementation either.  If your trying to sell this to a spreadsheet user then the user interface should do the trick, it is very easy to use.

I have used the Microsoft Basic for a few hours at the store.  It's fun  but I can't bring my self to buy a basic for a whole mess of money.  It takes it about 20-30 seconds to draw a thousand lines on the screen, I'd quess.  I don't think you could write an game in it that moved sprites about the screen.

The microsoft programs maybe copied to another disk, and run from the copy but a copy will always request that it see you master disk as it starts up, what a pain.  It only needs to see the master the first time you start it up in the day, if you never turned the machine off this wouldn't be such a problem.  There does not seem to be any copy protection on the Apple software, but then it may know the serial number of the machine some how, I doubt that since the hardware design doesn't seem to admit that as an option.

I heard a funny story about some  guy who'd gone to an interview at Microsoft.  It seems they have this  section of the building all boarded up for Mac development work, paper on the windows, locks on the doors, etc.  The guy he went out to lunch with from that group allowed as he hadn't been out of the building in a month.  The master Multiplan disk has all these 2:00Am, 5:15Am, Jan 30, 1984 dates on the files.

Ben Hyde, Intermetrics Inc, Cambridge, Mass.

Authentic 1984 after launch experience from a user. Found that one interesting. Especially that the 128k was perceived as slow even at launch. I was a little surprised about that, because the C64 or IBM-PCs weren't exactly speed demons either.

Fun to read about his experience with Mac Paint, Mac Write and Multiplan. Some of these were truly pioneering in that basically nobody had ever used a mouse-driven paint program before.
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Reply #24 on: March 24, 2024, 21:12

Steve had a vision, more so than Skulley or Tim Cooke for that matter.
For me it’s the late 1987-1995 Mac’s I have the fondest memories of, great gui, easy to use, great software and I liked the industrial design of the compacts and macintosh II lines.

My sister had a newton as an IT engineer, would get jobs through it connected through seriel to a phone. I thought it was cool. Always liked pda’s and have 2 Palm Pilots. A Palm IIII with clear case to match my se/30 and a later tungsten t5 attached to my G3 iMac. They’re pretty useless these days but look nice, I still play the odd game on them.
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Reply #25 on: March 26, 2024, 00:45

i went back and searched out the original prices for the equipment I bought in March of 1984.

128k Mac.              <>$2,900
Imagewriter Printer      <>$600
Secondary disk dive      <>$500
Separate numeric keypad. <>$100

Total $US.               $3,100

Exchange rate $US->$CDN <> 1.27

Price $CDN  $3,937.     <> $4,000

On top of that was a hidden 13.5% manufacturer's salesvtax and a 7% retail sales tax.

That would have given the lowest, read that Toronto price. I bought in Timmins, 400 miles into the bush.

I had origially posted that I paid about $3500 ...It was actually over $5,000 CDN. That was an exensive purchase.
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Reply #26 on: April 07, 2024, 20:06

Happy birthday Macintosh. Apologies for the late reply :)

I was somewhat late to Macintosh as the first one I saw was at art college in 1992. I had several home computers a sinclair zx80 when I was 6, followed by a zx81, trs-80, vic-20, Sinclair spectrum, a Commodore 64+4 and an amstrad CPC 464 all 8-bit, i somehow completely missed the 16-bit era like the Amiga/Atari ST. I jumped straight to a Macintosh Colour Classic around 1993/4 to help with my graphic design course. Back then the art college had around 10-12 Mac’s for students so they were time shared. All the staff had Macintosh 512’s or SE’s. I used to jump on every lunchtime mainly a variety of series II’s, IIx, IIvx, IIci they felt space aged and super high tech compared to my then Amstrad. That was until my parents brought me the Colour Classic 4/40 with System 7.1, the most phenomenally crisp 10 inch Sony Trinitron screen. 256 Colour, believe it not I used to carry it to college everyday as it was Portable 😂

I’ve had the Macintosh bug ever since.
Last Edit: April 07, 2024, 21:39 by Neal_SE30
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Reply #27 on: April 28, 2024, 07:49

Some more musing from first-time Mac users back in 1984 :-)

Quote from: bill coderre, April 1984
The other night I sat down and seriously used Write-Paint to write a 7pp single-spaced with illustrations technical paper. I learned quite a bit about some of the rough edges of write-paint, and I thought I'd pass along some observations and tips.

MacWrite:
I noticed that it is a hassle to use the mouse to do cursor positioning. It's tough for me to get the cursor into the middle of a word, and its an especial hassle to be taking my hands off the keyboard to get the mouse, twiddle it, then go back to the keyboard.

MacWrite won't let you put the cursor right between the header of a page and the first character on the page when the previous page had an "Insert Page Break" done. The solution is to move it after the first character and then erase the first character.

Blinking the typing line makes my eyes tired. Isn't there a better way? Most non-font editors are smart enough to print the line and erase EOL. Can't this be created for MacWrite?

When printing a document, you must have MacWrite, the Imagewriter utility, your document, and room left over for some sort of translated version of the document on your disk. Needless to say, it's easy to run out of room. The solution until the proposed double-density drives come out is to print the document in sections (i.e. pp. 1-3, 4-6, etc.).

At least you CAN print it out that way. Expectedly, there is no data loss if MacWrite runs out of room along the way, but there is also no advance warning of this event, and there is no ``help'' provided either on the screen or in the manual telling you the above empirically-derived hint. Seems they could've put it in the ``!'' box.

Headers and footers must be shown to work, but once you prep them you click the main document window (rather than saying ``Hide...'') to get them out of your way while still taking effect. This is clumsy. Also, page numbers like this: -12- are not really doable.

Printer:
Medium quality timed at about 1 to 1 1/2 to 2 minutes per page, page filled with single-spaced typing, headers and footers.

High quality timed at about 4-6 minutes per page as above, same document. High quality gives less jaggies, but doesn't really help with the roundness of some letterforms. Also, the letters in high-quality mode are heavier (have thicker strokes) than either what's on the screen or medium-quality mode. Bold characters in small fonts have a tendency to fill in.

Line/Page feeding in high quality mode is S-L-O-W. Wonder why?

It appears that Tall Adjust mode is the right thing to do, giving nice pictures and letterforms. But the ruler across the top of the screen doesn't work right then, so you must be careful!

IMPORTANT HINTS: You should always use the full 5 lines of header and footer so you don't end up typing on the roller in cut-sheet mode. Also, leave 1/4 inch between the little rollers and the top of the page in cut-sheet. When printing, the roller first turns DOWN a little before spacing up; if you don't leave extra, the paper gets munched really nicely...


MacPaint:
You can't select anything bigger than a windowful, so you can't put anything big into the clipboard. In order to clip big drawings you will have to dothem in pieces.

MacPaint uses older printing code, so it hangs until the printer is ready, then types with total disregard for the paper-out light. No prompts are given. Thus, don't say print till you really mean it!

All in all, I still can't answer the age old question ``Wouldn't it have been easier by hand?'' positively, but the results are very nice from write/paint, and it wasn't harder than any other word processor. Integrated text and graphics is awesome, especially on bond paper, and seeing the end result on the screen is fabulous. I honestly only had to print the document once. The Mac is the first consumer-league computer to offer this. I can't wait until the GOOD editors and graphic makers show up. I'm looking forward to doing my thesis with Mac.
Last Edit: April 28, 2024, 16:11 by Bolkonskij
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Reply #28 on: April 28, 2024, 14:23

That was a very pleasant read, thanks for posting that.

Retro computing often just revolves around older computers by people who have always had computers in their life and it is nice to see articles from people who more or less came of age before personal computers. When I was (much) younger I was fascinated by old cars, but cars had always been part of my life. My Father who lived in the early stages of the automotive age, had no interest in old cars. When someone would say, "They do not make them like the use to." My father would respond with, "Thank god for small favors."

I came of age before the personal computer arrived on the scene. Like the author in the post above, I could see a potential there, yet early on it was often at least as easy to just do things the way we learned to do them. I had typed many term papers, book reports and letters on a typewriter. It was familiar tech and just second nature to create written text on the machines. Early work processors were not really faster and they came with their own quirks, not to mention they required their own permanent setup.

I found computers fun to play with almost from the start, but in honesty I never really found them all that useful in my life until the turn of the century.
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Reply #29 on: April 28, 2024, 23:55

I was similar to you Gove, born in 1974 i grew up at the beginning of personal computers, they weren’t that useful back then but were sure intriguing, so many different types, shapes, colors all with different solutions… no standards yet, what an exciting time. I too learned to type on an actual type writer a sharp if I remember. My then Sinclair ZX Spectrum had an utterly useless thermal printer, more like a receipt printer really. Though I adore the many random 8-bit computers I had in my childhood it wasn’t until college using Macintosh’s and eventually getting my own color classic in 1993/4, it’s GUI/mouse, modern software that really inspired me and really gave me my career so I owe a lot to these little machines.
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