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| Author | Gopher: Bookmarks / Projects / The Future (Read 50437 times) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Neal_SE30
256 MB  Posts: 401 System 7 Newcomer! 
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Reply #15 on: February 27, 2023, 19:49
I’ll look weekend when zippy will but fully operational (death star style) |
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wove
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1024 MB Posts: 1363
Reply #16 on: February 27, 2023, 22:46
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The system7 gopher space works well, even with Cyberdog. Thanks. Once the Editors are setup, clicking in the help section, will download a text document and save it as well as automatically opening it in a text editor. It is odd how things morph and change. I have never ever thought of gopher for content downloading. It is always just display. I have accessed gopher space from a teletype terminal. Yeah you are there for the text, what would it do with a picture, what would it do with an application binary? In any event it is working well. I do find it strange that at the moment that gopher seems be mostly being used as a front end for ftp.
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Knezzen
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Administrator 512 MB  Posts: 608 Village idiot
Reply #17 on: February 28, 2023, 13:43
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Not sure what you mean by it being more of a frontend to FTP in the case of the System 7 Today gopher space. It's mostly text, though it's in the form of text documents linked and not so much gophermaps, if that's what you're thinking of? The text documents render directly in the client if you browse using Netscape or TurboGopher for instance.
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wove
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1024 MB Posts: 1363
Reply #18 on: February 28, 2023, 14:42
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That is just me being old, crazy and nostalgic. It is generally safe to just ignore me. The forum does seem to attract a lot of post about, "The world in going to hell in a hand cart." Traditionally one would use a different application for each different purpose. If you were researching, looking for info and answers you would go with Gopher. If you were hunting for binaries/executables you would dig through ftp. And for Gopher much was done via terminal on a multi user system, so an executable would not constitute anything useful. And of course times and usage change overtime. On a teletype gopher session, when you reached the information you were seeking, You would get a new page and the text info would print out cleanly on its own pages, so the information you sought would not be intermingled with with the gopher space text and commands. In that regard Cyberdog is doing what I would expect. Having gotten to the info I wanted, that info is saved to a file rather being just dumped into my session. When you are paying by the minute to have a connection, you want to gather the info you are looking for and dig into the info at your leisure. Cyberdog follows the way of OpenDoc. That is either a blessing or a curse depending on who you ask. I do not know how html works, but if Cyberdog comes across a reference to a file, it will download the file to be opened in a part editor that handles that file type. Movies, audio etc, never open in the browser, but are passed to the Quicktime player and so on with other file types. I personally enjoy that behavior. The other aspect I enjoy of Cyberdog, is that it simply ignores content it cannot interpret/display, without crashing. So like most old browsers there is a lot it can not handle, but it has the good manners to ignore the content and not choke and crash.
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Knezzen
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Administrator 512 MB Posts: 608 Village idiot
Reply #19 on: February 28, 2023, 15:04
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Thanks for the clarification, wove! What would you add or remove from our gopher space to enhance the user experience? Is it a good or bad thing to have all the guides and info in the help center as linked text documents rather than gophermaps (as in redered right in the gopher client/session?
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #20 on: February 28, 2023, 15:06
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Quote from: wove Traditionally one would use a different application for each different purpose. If you were researching, looking for info and answers you would go with Gopher. If you were hunting for binaries/executables you would dig through ftp. And for Gopher much was done via terminal on a multi user system, so an executable would not constitute anything useful. And of course times and usage change overtime. I perfectly understand what you mean! One would jump onto some University's FTP and sigh on seeing the chosen file's 1 MB size. On Gopher then you'd read on what to do with it. This is an early version of our Gopher and we basically just transfered some stuff from the www page to Gopher. The basic idea was to provide those of us running a 68000 or 68020 CPU equipped Mac with System 7 a way to grab updates & goodies for their system. If you browse to the Help-Center section, it should be more like the Gopher you knew. Certainly, more such stuff will follow. Quote from: wove That is just me being old, crazy and nostalgic. It is generally safe to just ignore me. The forum does seem to attract a lot of post about, "The world in going to hell in a hand cart." That's because you live in the eye of the storm. Come here to live in Europe for a few months and you'll know what we're rattling about ... :-)
Last Edit: February 28, 2023, 15:08 by Bolkonskij
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wove
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1024 MB Posts: 1363
Reply #21 on: February 28, 2023, 16:13
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I tend to come across as being way too critical. It is a major character flaw, that I have yet to overcome and I apologize. Your gopher setup works very well. The help section does feel very traditional "gopher". I was surprised to see all the executables for downloading, for they were not common in old Gopher. I do like having documents download as files. Text files are especially nice. They are universal, they can easily be dropped into any of the excellent notebooks available for System 7. We have become conditioned to using search to the point that well organized information structures feel antiquated. Perhaps one of the last remaining values to Gopher is that it needs an understood structure to work well. Cyberdog also does ftp. On Macintoshgarden, selecting the ftp for a file download, opens an ftp session (window) and the file downloads that way. That is a big change even from the mid 90s; we are pushed in the direction of using http for everything, forgetting the many other protocols that exist for other purposes. Reliance on search also keeps us from the fun of exploring information store and presented in a well organized heiriacal structure.
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Knezzen
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Administrator 512 MB Posts: 608 Village idiot
Reply #22 on: February 28, 2023, 19:13
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I didn't take it as you being too critical, wove! I appriciate the your sincerity and to see your point of view. I was too young back when Gopher still was a thing, so everything that I'm tryting to do now is a reconstruction of some sort. I appreciate to get information from someone who was around when it all went down, so to say  And I agree about the organizational issues with the internet of today. I like to browse around, but I'm mostly unable to do that on the modern web. Sites are way too cluttered, so I'm forced to use some kind of search function just to move forward. Me and Bolkonskij have had many discussions about how this wonderful website of ours should be organized, so it invites people to move around and find new information naturally. I would love to get the Gopher space to the same level. Just a fun place to explore, filled with good and relevant content.
Last Edit: February 28, 2023, 19:16 by Knezzen
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68040
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512 MB Posts: 950 68k - thy kingdom come, thy will be done !
Reply #23 on: March 01, 2023, 03:02
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Back in the day bandwidth was precious so "bling, bling" and mass cookie harvesting wasn't even an option, much less the inescapable culture it has devolved into today. People set up websites because they wanted other netizens to view their content, not collect and sell off visitor data. So ease of navigation was just a given - or your site would stay orphan, wither and die. Screens were small, so very small - but back then we looked into the shining future with eagle eyes.  Thus screen real estate was a precious commodity, but we packed every inch we had available. Ah and yes - we loooved our eye candy. Which was hard to come by in the age of Black & White 12" screens. So ASCII art was very popular, as was ANSI coloring. The world in 16 colors, yup, we had emoji chars decades before that term got even invented. 
Last Edit: March 01, 2023, 03:12 by 68040
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Bolkonskij
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Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023
Reply #24 on: March 01, 2023, 07:31
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Quote from: wove I tend to come across as being way too critical. It is a major character flaw, that I have yet to overcome and I apologize. Absolutely no reason to do so. Over here in Central Europe we actually appreciate directness and you state clearly what you think. I like it. Please continue to do so. Just as Knezzen, I also love your personal memories of how this stuff was used *thumbs up* Quote from: 68040 Back in the day bandwidth was precious so "bling, bling" and mass cookie harvesting wasn't even an option, much less the inescapable culture it has devolved into today. Yes, it was a web by enthusiasts for enthusiasts where the limitations of the day actually led to better results in many cases. (because people had to think twice about what to put / use!) From a web developer's perspective, the problem with today's "bling, bling" is that we keep adding layer after layer of e.g. useless CSS or JavaScript. Go into developer mode on Safari or Chrome and just watch what happens as you load these pages. OMG. It's crazy how much bloat websites carry with them (which adds a lot to the abysmal performance on anything but the latest hardware)
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cballero
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1024 MB Posts: 1176 System 7, today and forever
Reply #25 on: March 01, 2023, 17:25
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You nailed it Bolkonskij: with the advent of dynamically-generated websites and the auto-injection of (mostly) Google Ads, the face of the Internet has been continually evolving, with a (logically security and marketing-focused) shift toward secure sites (SSL) and mobile and tablet devices (even though most sites including static, informational ones don't benefit from SSL at all) but they have a residual effect of making any kind of simple website creation more challenging  Sites are no longer made to comply with simpler standards, I'm sure in an effort to squash the use of outdated web browsers, that while can pose a valid security risk, could still get a nod to their existence, citing that as a counterproductive practice. With web-AI, simple sites could easily be generated for older browsers with likely very little additional costs or overhead (and likely never going to happen either)
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Knezzen
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Administrator 512 MB Posts: 608 Village idiot
Reply #26 on: March 01, 2023, 19:38
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So I started adding some "nice to have" links to our Gopher Hole. Can be accessed "for real" or through the floodgap gopher proxy, depending on what system you're using. I'll add whatever you guys link to. Would be cool to have a nice Gopher link database. gopher://gopher.system7today.com/1/links Or if you're using a typical WWW client http://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/gw?a=gopher%3A%2F%2Fgopher.system7today.com%2F1%2Flinks
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scouter
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64 MB Posts: 81 Retired IT Administraor
Reply #27 on: March 01, 2023, 20:28
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the Gopher site looks and works great on my MacBook Pro using Gophie a OSX gopher client. Found it a breeze to browse around. Keep up the good work. I would try it out on my PowerBook 1400CS if someone could tell me how to get networking working using a 3com 3C589C pcmcia card, had no luck with drivers at the mo. Christopher.
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MTT
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256 MB Posts: 394 SSW7 Oldtimer
Reply #28 on: March 02, 2023, 02:54
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Quote from: scouter who mentioned: "...get networking working using a 3com 3C589C pcmcia card "I used to have a 1400CS (no longer) and had ethernet working OK via a Dell branded 3Com 3C589C PCMCIA card. I used only the custom driver from this old floodgap page. The driver is located at the bottom of that page as "3ComENetDrv.sit" (11K) But I guess that you may already have that driver. I think I needed to disable any Apple installed ethernet drivers, like "Apple Built-in Ethernet" and "Apple Ethernet NB", but did retain "EtherTalk Phase 2" and "Thread Manager" (vers 2.1). I recall I needed to disable those Apple drivers when using 3rd party ethernet devices. The hints and tips on that floodgap page may be of help. I found that page and the custom driver was all I needed to get it working. I'm amazed that the page still exists, quite frankly. Say, it's a S7Today friendly HTTP link, too
Last Edit: March 02, 2023, 03:18 by MTT
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Knezzen
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Administrator 512 MB Posts: 608 Village idiot
Reply #29 on: March 02, 2023, 10:52
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Thanks for the link MTT! I'm adding the driver to S7T as well
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