Pascal still used, surprised me.



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Author	Pascal still used, surprised me. (Read 73307 times)
wove 1024 MB Posts: 1363	on: April 15, 2025, 16:59 For a fast, easy and quick way to write disk images to media I often use ApplePiBaker on OS X. Disk Utility and of course "dd" work well too. ApplePiBaker works much the same as the Raspberry Pi Imager and I started using Apple Pi Baker, because it works on older versions of OS X, while the Raspberry Pi imager is only content with the later versions. So this morning I am using Apple Pi Baker to put the latest Fedora ISO on a USB stick and am bored while the process completes and I take a look at the about box, where I notice that the application is written in Pascal. I have not seen talk of Pascal since the early days of the Macintosh and had no idea that anyone used it for development anymore. Anyway here I am burning a linux image on the latest MacOS using an application written in Pascal and it just sort of gave a warm and fuzzy retro vibe

68040 512 MB Posts: 950 68k - thy kingdom come, thy will be done !	Reply #1 on: April 16, 2025, 02:46 Pascal was one of the first high level programming languages that allowed for structured coding, localized variables and even object oriented programming. And opposite to C(++) it encourages the development of code, that is easy to read and maintain, even by third party programmers.

wove 1024 MB Posts: 1363	Reply #2 on: April 16, 2025, 03:44 I remember Pascal as something a buzzword thing back in the 80s. Education used it as a language to teach good programming skills. It was popular for early Mac development. I do not think I have seen any mention of Pascal for 20 years. I had to go read a bit about "What's happening in the world of Pascal?" Pascal was used to create the Aqua interface for OS X. A Pascal development environment is included in Apple's Xcode. (Is it still? I am not sure when the article I was reading was published.) Education still uses it to teach good programming skills. What I imagine Pascal's huge drawback today is the language does not support multi-threading. What I would assume is a huge strength is that Pascal has tight integration with Assembly language. (Wonder how it compares to BBC Basic?) And of course nothing would tickle my retro fancy more that coming across an application written in Assembly language. Which I suppose only goes to show that in my mind no Mac is really old enough to be properly called retro. They are just obsolete.

68040 512 MB Posts: 950 68k - thy kingdom come, thy will be done !	Reply #3 on: April 16, 2025, 09:24 I wrote my first big solo project in Turbo Pascal (taught myself) and fell in love with it right away. Later on I switched to C++ and dove in deep. But it never felt the same. First love, best love.

Jatoba 256 MB Posts: 270 System 9 Newcomer!	Reply #4 on: April 16, 2025, 10:33 Lazarus IDE is a pretty big deal, and I don't think it's going away anytime soon, along with Delphi / Free Pascal. That's because Delphi itself was heavily important and business-relevant in the early 2000s, and to some capacity even to this day. Pascal is something I'd definitely look more into if we lived in a world where C never existed and was also not the lingua franca of all programming languages. Wanna make sure your code runs EVERYWHERE? Use C. Pascal? Not as much. Still, I "have" to learn Pascal enough so that I know how to handle Pascal-formatted strings... Ugh. One major headache when using Mac OS APIs, sadly. Quote from: wove Which I suppose only goes to show that in my mind no Mac is really old enough to be properly called retro. They are just obsolete. Hardly would call spyware-free hardware "obsolete". If anything, that would be just about any Intel/ARM device (cough and POWER10 cough). Intel/ARM are also obsolete for me in the sense that they are unable to natively run Mac OS today, staying stuck in OS X territory. (It'd be nice if that would change, though. E.g. reverse-engineer ALL of Mac OS, and/or make a full Mac OS equivalent of ReactOS.) Quote from: 68040 Pascal was one of the first high level programming languages that allowed for structured coding, localized variables and even object oriented programming. Nah, this is false, other high-level languages preceded Pascal in those features by more than a decade. Pascal is simply just not a super late adopter. Also it wasn't object-oriented, that's something that was added later on (Object Pascal), pioneered by Apple with the Lisa, and wasn't part of the original design nor vision for Pascal. Quote from: 68040 And opposite to C(++) it encourages the development of code, that is easy to read and maintain, even by third party programmers. Sorry, but this part is complete hogwash: all the Pascal features you praised are in C++. They are also in C, minus of course object-orientation (and some will, in many ways correctly, argue that that's a good thing), although you still have structs anyway, which are used similarly. Furthermore, Pascal did not have namespaces until Delphi introduced them circa 2005. C++ has had namespaces since the inception of the very first C++ standard in 1998. It goes without saying this put C++ ahead in terms of encouraging "the development of code, that is easy to read and maintain" over Pascal. C is still king, though! Regardless of it all, however, clean, concise code is a choice that is left up to the developers.

lauland 512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!	Reply #5 on: April 16, 2025, 16:47 And, of course the original MacOS toolbox was written in Pascal (as much as possible)! When doing seriously retro coding, such as for System 6/7.0, Apple's original Inside Mac books can't be beat. The toolbox was so small and uncomplicated back then, you can really wrap your head around the whole thing... But of course, all the examples and docs in the books are in Pascal, so you have to "translate" in your head to C. The paradigms aren't that different from C, so translating is very easy..."begin/end" instead of curly brackets, variable declaration is "backwards" (so "Count:Integer;" instead of "int Count;"), etc etc. To my brain, it feels very analogous to speaking a foreign language, it's awkward and I'm not eloquent, and reading is far easier than "speaking". C "beat" Pascal in popularity because it was "smaller" and a bit closer to the hardware, and allows you to play very fast and loose with types and pointers, where Pascal would force you to do things "correctly". (Ironically, a lot of this was lost as C++ became more and more bloated and picky). On a modern Mac, you can install FreePascal with homebrew or macports with a simple "brew/port install fpc". On classic Macs, Think/Symantec Pascal can't be beat with a stick, and is shockingly small and fast. There's a version of FreePascal for MPW on classic Macs, but I wouldn't recommend it. (It is missing several standard libraries and features). Lazarus is the standard IDE for FreePascal, and many (most?) Delphi features have been reproduced (and beyond?). Delphi was a first class "visual" environment where large amounts of the work could be done in the gui, without typing a single line a code. (Like Visual Basic, but very much unlike Visual C++, which was to a large part visual in name only). So, in some ways, it's not entirely surprising to find a "modern" linux utility written in it. The fact that more software isn't written in it is more due to simple popularity of C than any technical reasons. Just like modern cinema (and pop culture in general) is (mostly) dominated by the English language. You certainly could argue that English is the "C" of human language.
Last Edit: April 16, 2025, 16:49 by lauland
68040 512 MB Posts: 950 68k - thy kingdom come, thy will be done !	Reply #6 on: April 16, 2025, 19:30 Quote from: Jatoba Nah, this is false, other high-level languages preceded Pascal in those features by more than a decade. Pascal is simply just not a super late adopter. Also it wasn't object-oriented, that's something that was added later on (Object Pascal), pioneered by Apple with the Lisa, and wasn't part of the original design nor vision for Pascal. I was talking about commercially viable end-user platforms back in the 1980's. Adn that meant almost exclusively IBM PC & DOS. And there Borland's Turbo Pascal was King! And yes, I wrote code in Object Pascal - albeit a bit later in the game. Quote from: Jatoba Sorry, but this part is complete hogwash: all the Pascal features you praised are in C++. Sorry, but that hogwash is on you. Back in them days we simply had no viable C++ IDE for the DOS platform. It-simply-didn't-exist. Microsoft C++ with the foundation classes was the first commercially viable (emphasis on) Cpp IDE for mainstream personal computers. Some obscure LISA project known to a few just as obscene University nerds doesn't count. I'm talking about the stuff you can impress the folks sitting around the conference table in the boardroom with. You also had Philippe Kahn's C++, but Borland could never compete with the likes of IBM or Microsoft when it came to brand name recognition around the conference table. Whether you like it or not: Pascal was the first choice for any programmer with a formal IT education. Because it enforced discipline. C on the other hand was(is?) for lazy, self-tought, quick'n dirty coders who think well structured programs are for boring people.
Last Edit: April 16, 2025, 19:45 by 68040
Jatoba 256 MB Posts: 270 System 9 Newcomer!	Reply #7 on: April 17, 2025, 16:10 @68040 Well, way to move down from "hogwash" to "dystopian sewage". Addressing each massively-ignorant blob accordingly: Quote from: 68040 Back in them days we simply had no viable C++ IDE for the DOS platform. It-simply-didn't-exist. You brought up "C(++)" and attempted to contrast it with Pascal yourself, genius. I merely responded to that. Quote from: 68040 Whether you like it or not: Pascal was the first choice for any programmer with a formal IT education. Because it enforced discipline. Pascal is honestly great, but the first part is simply false, because various other languages were also pushed and incentivized at the time (as well as both before and after). Exact languages varied heavily depending on the university, school, and/or teacher, as did the reasons. Same as today. The second part is also false in that it is unable of enforcing it. You can write unruly, messy spaghetti code in Pascal all day any day. It can encourage some discipline, but the same is also true for most other languages, including C and C++. Not that there isn't merit also in languages being much less strict, because there certainly is, such as with JavaScript and so many others. Quote from: 68040 C on the other hand was(is?) for lazy, self-tought, quick'n dirty coders who think well structured programs are for boring people. All you said genuinely borders on the comical, but this bit probably takes the cake: Didn't you just say you were self-taught, yourself? At that rate, you have even less respect for yourself than I and most others in all the Mac spaces you walk on do. Granted, some of the best coders are self-taught, and most of the good ones with a degree usually did most of their good learning after graduation, on their own. (Dare I wonder, am I complimenting you, while you are mercilessly bashing yourself? ) Now, that bit is hardly worthy of an answer (not that the other parts were any better), but almost everything you use, including your beloved Mac OS 8.1 tablet running Android (Linux) and Basilisk ][, is near-entirely written in C or C++, much of which was written all back then. They hardly meet your laughably-generalized claim of being "lazy", "quick'n'dirty" coders "who think well structured programs are for boring people". (Tsk tsk, them lazy and poorly-structured-code-writing KERNEL developers, I tell ya!) You can make that same kind of (100% nonsensical) attribution to any group you like: "Them Pascal developers ate glue as kids and only wrote(write?) spaghetti without any rhyme of reason and thought well-engineered programs are for those raised in a barn". Embarassing. Like some kind of religious zealot. If you generate all this constant trash with an app, please make sure to create a Garden page for it! It's honestly a shame that any person at all is prompted to waste their time with your crap, not just by replying to it, but even reading it. However, on behalf of every Macintosh community member out there (or at least 95% of everyone -- probably more), I will gladly keep on picking up your trash that you leave behind anytime! Be it in the Garden (gotta keep our gardens clean!), S7T or anywhere else.
Last Edit: April 17, 2025, 16:18 by Jatoba
lauland 512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!	Reply #8 on: April 17, 2025, 16:37 What the flip? Guys, seriously, be civil adults. Take a chill pill you two! This kind of truly useless "discussion" just brings down the site. I know you're both good guys, but, truly...this is beyond the pale. Stop it. Take this elsewhere, or, better, nowhere.
Last Edit: April 17, 2025, 16:39 by lauland
Knezzen Administrator 512 MB Posts: 608 Village idiot	Reply #9 on: April 18, 2025, 11:04 What he said! But seriously, please keep it civil. We all have our experiences and and views on things.

68040 512 MB Posts: 950 68k - thy kingdom come, thy will be done !	Reply #10 on: April 18, 2025, 11:34 Quote from: Jatoba Well, way to move down from "hogwash" to "dystopian sewage". Addressing each massively-ignorant blob accordingly: I was talking about programming languages and you turn this into an ad hominem competition. As I wrote, PASCAL is for disciplined adults and as such I am unlinking myself now from this sewage competition. I just downloaded myself tons of PASCAL source code from AppleFritter. People back then - smart people - knew why they chose that programming language over others. PS: Quote from: Jatoba It's honestly a shame that any person at all is prompted to waste their time with your crap, not just by replying to it, but even reading it. However, on behalf of every Macintosh community member out there (or at least 95% of everyone -- probably more), I will gladly keep on picking up your trash that you leave behind anytime! Whenever you happen to find the assignment that proclaimed you the foul mouthed spokesperson for "95% of the Macintosh community" - be it here or in the Garden or anywhere else for that matter - please send me a copy as a personal keepsake.
Last Edit: April 18, 2025, 13:18 by 68040
Bolkonskij Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023	Reply #11 on: April 18, 2025, 15:59 Tsk. Tsk.No time to check in here for a day and we're getting a heated discussion :-/ Guys, lauland and knezzen correctly said it, we're both adult and civilized enough to respect everybodys opinion without the need to get personal, no matter how much you disagree with the expressed opinion. This forum is our little refuge from the crazy world out there and one thing I don't want is people destroying the "cozy factor" of S7T. You can disagree but do it in a civil way, just as a general rule. Knezzen and I discussed this and very quickly decided to lock this thread and move on, since we're only getting further off topic. Please remember, ultimately we're all on the same team, wearing the same Mac OS colours :-)

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