In praise of non-native English speakers...



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Author	In praise of non-native English speakers... (Read 37422 times)
lauland 512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!	on: December 13, 2024, 17:59 Just a call out to all out to celebrate all you non-native speakers who are forced to use such a monstrous freak-of-nature language to converse here. Your skill and ability always impresses and humbles me. Being a tad multi-lingual (a few Romance, sadly no Germanic or Scandinavian), I feel the pain you must sometimes experience and appreciate the mental gymnastics that goes on. I try to read classic literature in their original languages and know full well I am missing half the subtitles...so when you use slang and colloquialisms it is really dazzling.

Bolkonskij Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023	Reply #1 on: December 14, 2024, 14:48 That's a very kind thing to say, lauland. This non-native English speaker does aim to improve his language skills all the time. I assume most of our - overly non-native English speaking community members - do the same. We likewise appreciate you being patient with us whenever we mix up grammar or translate "quirky" sounding sentences straight from our mother tongues :-)

ShinobiKenobi 256 MB Posts: 362 System 7 fan	Reply #2 on: December 14, 2024, 22:13 Good point, Lauland! I also think about the difficulties and challenges non-English speakers frequently endure. I also want to thank you all for your patience and endurance, and I do actually take time to appreciate how convenient it is for us English speakers. I honestly feel bad for having it so easy, but I really appreciate that so many people take the time to learn English, the dominant imperial language of our day. I have learned some Swedish, German, and Spanish because I feel that it's not fair for non-English speakers if I choose to stay lazy and not learn other languages. I also naturally don't like slang, and try to adhere to (as best as I can) proper textbook English. But that also might be because I have Asperger's, and, according to the DSM5, in the US I am considered high-functioning autistic. At first that may sound like it sucks to be me, but I think it makes me a better programmer. I've always been very literal. Much like Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory in personality (though not as extreme), but the difference stops there. I am not a genius LOL! Sadly, I have forgotten much of what I have learned because I don't have anyone to speak those languages with. I have trouble staying with something , no matter what it is, and eventually lose interest in it, even if only temporarily. But anyway, I just wanted to say you guys are awesome!!!
Last Edit: December 14, 2024, 22:44 by ShinobiKenobi
lauland 512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!	Reply #3 on: December 15, 2024, 03:55 Yeah I was thinking about the "human language" to "programming language" connection the other day...it really is Apples and Oranges, but probably doesn't hurt if you're multi-lingual one way with doing the other. Maybe if you speak more than one human language, you're more tolerant of multiple programming languages? (ie can switch between English and something else, then maybe switching between something like C and JavaScript is easier too?) There's quite a few studies about the benefits of bilingualism, but it is funny that, for many, they "just do it". ie it isn't something they think about, and doesn't even really feel like a "skill"...it's something else mentally entirely. I know deep in the past when I was able to think in a different language, it wasn't something I COULD even really "think about", I just did it, it was like wearing shorts instead of jeans...just different. But I could go on and on and on...I call myself a "closet linguist" because I find languages so fascinating. My education took place before Asperger's was "discovered", but I'd be willing to bet quite a lot of actual hard cash I'm "on the spectrum" also. I had trouble learning writing, but read like an insane maniac...they didn't know what to do with me in school! My grades suffered, I, obviously, had trouble writing papers (this was a LONG time ago, kids), but I was clearly "smart", or so I was told. Only learned a diagnosis by chance ("Dysgraphia", like Dyslexia) after having multiple decades under my belt. (And I thought I was just "dumb" or hard headed!). It caused me to learn typing at a VERY early age, and I think I can thank my love of computers for it too. LANGUAGE GEEK BONUS: They say everyone "has a book in them" that's waiting to be written. Mine: would be about as many human languages as possible in a single volume...but ONLY have 2-4 pages for each, nothing else, very terse, no big wordy sections. Each would describe the fundamental differences or weirdness about them. For example: Spanish (two word for "to be", "to know", and "to have", e->ie/o->ue vowel mutations etc), French (final consonants almost never pronounced, negatives need extra particle like "pas" "plus" "rien") etc etc etc. So if you know related languages, you could look one up and find out what makes it unique. Like, I find I can read a lot of Catalan from my other languages, but what are the gotcha's that make it unique? Or similarly, ok, you have Latin...just list the mutations from it to the other Romance languages in their sections. I'd really love to read about how all the different Chinese dialects relate in such a book! (I know there actually ARE some books a bit like that out there...I've got a few on my shelf...but I want a comprehensive yet needle fine "tour" and don't want to read some professor's essays or historic ramblings.) My crazy brain with Dysgraphia means I've been able to teach myself to read (but not speak/understand) some Chinese (and thus Japanese also, after adding the two Kanas), but if you asked me to actually draw a Chinese character I couldn't to save my life!
Last Edit: December 15, 2024, 05:24 by lauland
Bolkonskij Administrator 1024 MB Posts: 2023	Reply #4 on: December 15, 2024, 10:28 I think it goes without saying that learning a language not just gives you the skills, but it also helps you to learn more and understand the countries this language is spoken in. For example, I do speak Russian alongside English and it gives me a completely different view on many Russian things than what those without the language skills have. Because they are dependent on 3rd party accounts. Same goes if you learn Portuguese, Chinese, Swahili, Polish, whatever. So learning a language is always something that will help you push your horizon further and thus I fully endorse it! Everybody should learn at least one foreign language. I find your post highly interesting @lauland. I knew about Dyslexia, but never heard about Dysgraphia. I'll have to do some researching (read: googling) on it. I do think language and programming languages have in common that both operate within a fixed structure, be it grammar or syntax. In order to do anything meaningful, you have to learn it. This happens to be sometimes easier, sometimes harder - and depends on your previous knowledge. (e.g. if lauland knows Spanish, he'll be able to pick up Italian or Romanian easier than somebody who knows only Japanese) But this would actually be an interesting study subject for a master's degree thesis :-)
Last Edit: December 15, 2024, 10:31 by Bolkonskij
Lichen Software 128 MB Posts: 252	Reply #5 on: December 15, 2024, 16:48 English is kind of like the guitar of languages. It is a very hard language to learn well. However, it seems that it is one of the easier languages to learn to speak/write fair to badly and that is also coupled with a great forgiveness of non native speakers for their diction (we understand you are going through hell). This is probably part of why it is so widely spoken. It is probably also why it is constantly changing. We will pillage what non native speakers bring to us and incorporate it directly into the language. We appropriate shamelessly.

68040 512 MB Posts: 950 68k - thy kingdom come, thy will be done !	Reply #6 on: December 15, 2024, 17:56 Sorry, but this is nonsense. English is a wonderful language, full of beautiful rhythms and powerful images. Also, n-o-b-o-d-y should ever make apologies for using his own language on his own turf. If this would be a German forum I'd insist on people talking German German in it.

lauland 512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!	Reply #7 on: December 16, 2024, 01:59 Haw! I had personally just been struggling with a non-English lanaguage, fully aware of how horribly I was doing when I wrote the original post. And remembered a while back when I had gotten on an online "chat" and stumbled into the middle of a conversation. I mistook some Swedish they had sprinkled in for them using "funny nonsense" words or slang "kids these days" use. I then proceeded to repeat some of these words in the hopes of being "cool" and fitting it. As they say, hilarity ensued! (And isn't it funny with skills, how the more you learn and the "better" you get at it, the more you become aware of how badly you're doing it?) ---- Damn, I love @Lichen Software's "English is the guitar of lanauges". So many "dudes" have one, but you REALLY don't want to hear some of them try to play! I fully concede (not conseed? not conceed?) to @68040's points! English is a magnificent bastard language. There are others that have just as colorful genealogies (not geneologies?) and gleefully mix vocabulary and structures from multiple families, but none as widespread and prolific. The fact that ~70% of its words are inherited from Latin and French (and Greek!), yet it is considered a Germanic language make it a true rich melting pot of a stew of a tongue (rhythm there!) (Not rythem?). And made learning those languages a LOT easier than learning something COMPLETELY unrelated like Japanese or Arabic. (Although both borrow a lot of English!) There's so many times when I wonder WHY we even bother with translations when you can clearly tell what is meant. I once rode (not road?) a bus that said "por favor no cruce enfrente del autobus", which even someone with zero Spanish can comprehend (understand? comprende?). But there ARE reasons we don't all speak Esperanto or some other "universal language", are they good ones? You can argue both ways until you're blue. And there ARE reasons English spelling is so insane. Again...good ones? Eh, sometimes? Maybe just historical? If it weren't for modern spellchecking EVERYWHERE I'd be taken for semi-literate...I'm a master of the grammar (not gammer?) and syntax, but before spellchecking my education really suffered due to my crazy brain. ---- But, yeah, I feel like if I'm reading a book that was translated, I am (usually unless the translator took real care) just NOT getting it, only a pale imitation. I'm missing the turns of vocabulary, and especially rhythm and rhymes and wordplay. I've read some translations, like a French Alice in Wonderland, that really did care, and created their own delightful new tricks of language ("mouse" and "smile"), but that's the exception and not the rule.
Last Edit: December 16, 2024, 02:12 by lauland
cballero 1024 MB Posts: 1176 System 7, today and forever	Reply #8 on: December 16, 2024, 02:14 I definitely agree that speaking more than one language opens many doors! and I love all of the languages that I do speak, again, for that same reason I hadn't thought of programming languages in the context of languages, and I echo the cool post of your experiences growing up, Lauland, plus the thoughts on language evolution! I think we all know areas where we struggle with things, so the best medicine, for me at least, is to look for the areas I excel at and simply augment that or those wherever possible, of course! And as far as translated creative works like books or other media, it would only do it justice to make it digestible to the one who will enjoy the creative work; otherwise, a transliteration of the piece would not do it justice and be a poor rendition

lauland 512 MB Posts: 674 Symtes 7 Mewconer!	Reply #9 on: December 16, 2024, 16:19 I've been devouring detective novels lately (with Kindle Unlimited, there's an infinite amount of them). Screamed through a particularly good series by a Dutch author, and pleasantly surprised to see the translator's name not only on the cover, but an "About the translator" page with her picture! (They should always do that!) A personal challenge would've been attempting to re-read them in the original language... And that's an example of what I've said in other posts, on programming...I'd pick up a bit of Dutch just from already knowing the stories and its relation to English, with zero prior knowledge. If I did, could I claim to "know Dutch"? No way! But, if I picked up some new random Dutch book, would I find I could actually read any, at least enough to know what was going on? Yes! Have done exactly this with Italian, Portuguese and working on Catalan, and far harder, a little German. I'm having trouble really nailing explaining this learning philosophy/method, but it's getting past the fear of having no idea of what you're doing, and not understanding anything, at least at first. But getting "the gist" by repetition and slowly growing familiarity, and, of course, making SO many mistakes. You'll see the same phrase or words, and the contexts over and over. You may not know "what they mean", but you "know how/where they're" used. ---- I was musing on learning programming by reading books, and realized I never once read a book on Windows programming, but because the concepts are the same, I recognized the "phrases" and "words" from my Mac knowledge when looking at example code. Taking those, using bits of the examples, I could add "#ifdef WINDOWS" sections and port my Mac code. I'm oversimplifying a bit, but the proof is in the pudding, when, bam, my crude Pac-Man clone drew everything (but in the wrong colors) for the first time.

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